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MegaTraveller Discuss of the MegaTraveller ruleset and the Rebellion Milieu

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  #71  
Old March 24th, 2005, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diocletian:
I don't see Tranian taking that role. I think the nobility and other in high positions would see him as a sycophant of Lucan. If Lucan were taken down, he would go with him.

...

My preference would be that he does win, but he now has a shattered and suffering Imperium for the most part the result of what he did in 1116. He has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better.
On Tranian: taking him out is easier said than done. Even if Capital falls, he still would have Gateway Domain behind him, plus a bunch of surviving fleets.

On the other hand, not all remnants of Lucan's Imperium would rally to him. You would expect many to simply defect to Dulinor, while others would rally to Margaret. Some, not doubt, would flee into Antares and/or Lishun, and others would simply go home. It would depend on their location, their political views, and the likelihood of being punished by the victors.

Tranian certainly would be in an interesting situation post-Lucan. It seems unlikely that he would have approved of Lucan's less sane escapades, but he certainly would have trouble ducking responsibility for them. He wouldn't want to face a war crimes tribunal...

But on the other hand, all of the senior figures of Lucan's Imperium would have that problem. That would actually encourage them to coalesce around a moderate figure like Tranian (and we don't have any other named figures to use instead). Certain more radically sadistic figures are likely to be thrown to the wolves...

Incidentally, nobody has mentioned the K'kree incursions in this discussion yet. Personally I tended to read these as being relatively small scale, rather than yet another full scale invasion. That would be just too much for my tastes.

Still, the threat of such a thing could be significant in the post-Lucan settlement.
You need "Tranian the buffer against the K'kree" on your side more than you need to punish "Tranian the hated war criminal".

On Dulinor: I'm not particularly impressed by the "he has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better" argument. It's too much like "Hitler would have had to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better".

Of course I've just suggested that Tranian the war criminal should be able to get away with his crimes, just like Margaret the war criminal and all the other war criminals. But Dulinor is something special. Dulinor caused it all.

Relying on Dulinor being a big baby whose pangs of conscience will somehow punish him for killing billions and billions of people is absurd. He's one of the greatest mass murderers in the whole of history, but it's OK because he feels bad about it? Feh.

Bring on the farm machinery.
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  #72  
Old March 24th, 2005, 07:35 PM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diocletian:
I don't see Tranian taking that role. I think the nobility and other in high positions would see him as a sycophant of Lucan. If Lucan were taken down, he would go with him.

...

My preference would be that he does win, but he now has a shattered and suffering Imperium for the most part the result of what he did in 1116. He has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better.
On Tranian: taking him out is easier said than done. Even if Capital falls, he still would have Gateway Domain behind him, plus a bunch of surviving fleets.

On the other hand, not all remnants of Lucan's Imperium would rally to him. You would expect many to simply defect to Dulinor, while others would rally to Margaret. Some, not doubt, would flee into Antares and/or Lishun, and others would simply go home. It would depend on their location, their political views, and the likelihood of being punished by the victors.

Tranian certainly would be in an interesting situation post-Lucan. It seems unlikely that he would have approved of Lucan's less sane escapades, but he certainly would have trouble ducking responsibility for them. He wouldn't want to face a war crimes tribunal...

But on the other hand, all of the senior figures of Lucan's Imperium would have that problem. That would actually encourage them to coalesce around a moderate figure like Tranian (and we don't have any other named figures to use instead). Certain more radically sadistic figures are likely to be thrown to the wolves...

Incidentally, nobody has mentioned the K'kree incursions in this discussion yet. Personally I tended to read these as being relatively small scale, rather than yet another full scale invasion. That would be just too much for my tastes.

Still, the threat of such a thing could be significant in the post-Lucan settlement.
You need "Tranian the buffer against the K'kree" on your side more than you need to punish "Tranian the hated war criminal".

On Dulinor: I'm not particularly impressed by the "he has to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better" argument. It's too much like "Hitler would have had to face the fact that his ideals helped to take out the lives he had the intent of making better".

Of course I've just suggested that Tranian the war criminal should be able to get away with his crimes, just like Margaret the war criminal and all the other war criminals. But Dulinor is something special. Dulinor caused it all.

Relying on Dulinor being a big baby whose pangs of conscience will somehow punish him for killing billions and billions of people is absurd. He's one of the greatest mass murderers in the whole of history, but it's OK because he feels bad about it? Feh.

Bring on the farm machinery.
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  #73  
Old March 24th, 2005, 09:53 PM
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And Dulinor Wouldn't feel bad about it. He'd proclaim them as martyrs for Sophontological Rights, and the Codex of Imperial laws applying below the 10diameters threshold.

And he'd rather quickly draft the imperial order abolishing Forced Labor, and non-governmental chattels; probably also ban death penalties for anything other than High treason, Active Mutiny and Active barratry, . He'd also impose a mandate of service. The neat thing about right of assassination: If you succeed, it's not treason; if you fail, it's high treason. He kind of succeeded.

And yes, if Dulinor doesn't take capital, Lucan or No, he's had it. He'll die on Capital, rather than face defeat.
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Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
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Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
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Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
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  #74  
Old March 24th, 2005, 09:53 PM
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And Dulinor Wouldn't feel bad about it. He'd proclaim them as martyrs for Sophontological Rights, and the Codex of Imperial laws applying below the 10diameters threshold.

And he'd rather quickly draft the imperial order abolishing Forced Labor, and non-governmental chattels; probably also ban death penalties for anything other than High treason, Active Mutiny and Active barratry, . He'd also impose a mandate of service. The neat thing about right of assassination: If you succeed, it's not treason; if you fail, it's high treason. He kind of succeeded.

And yes, if Dulinor doesn't take capital, Lucan or No, he's had it. He'll die on Capital, rather than face defeat.
__________________
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aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
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  #75  
Old March 24th, 2005, 09:53 PM
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And Dulinor Wouldn't feel bad about it. He'd proclaim them as martyrs for Sophontological Rights, and the Codex of Imperial laws applying below the 10diameters threshold.

And he'd rather quickly draft the imperial order abolishing Forced Labor, and non-governmental chattels; probably also ban death penalties for anything other than High treason, Active Mutiny and Active barratry, . He'd also impose a mandate of service. The neat thing about right of assassination: If you succeed, it's not treason; if you fail, it's high treason. He kind of succeeded.

And yes, if Dulinor doesn't take capital, Lucan or No, he's had it. He'll die on Capital, rather than face defeat.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
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  #76  
Old March 24th, 2005, 10:31 PM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aramis:
And Dulinor Wouldn't feel bad about it.
Yes. Or no more than an experienced hypocrite could rationalise away.

Dulinor would have won. Period.

All the stuff he did would have been justified.

The ends would have justified the means.

OK, now in the Real World(tm) that's exactly what you would expect to happen. But this isn't the Real World(tm). We have the option of fixing what happens for the sake of the story.

Should Evil Triumph? Should Dulinor benefit from his crimes? Do his ends justify his means? Or should he meet an ignominious end at the hands of some of the lowly citizens who he claimed to champion, and actually oppressed? And so on.

(And should we preserve as much of OTU canon as we can? Why shouldn't we use the death of Dulinor story, since we are using the death of Brzk?)

Of course, each of us will come up with our own answers. That's fine. The point of talking about it is an exercise in comparing notes, and having a bit of a chat, not an exercise in proving who's right.

Really, in the end, it's an exercise in creative writing. The goals are two-fold. First, of course, we want to rationalise our individual choices of roleplaying settings. Second, we want the best possible stories that do that. We want the setting to be interesting - something people will want to play in and learn about.

And whatever works for that is good.
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  #77  
Old March 24th, 2005, 10:31 PM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aramis:
And Dulinor Wouldn't feel bad about it.
Yes. Or no more than an experienced hypocrite could rationalise away.

Dulinor would have won. Period.

All the stuff he did would have been justified.

The ends would have justified the means.

OK, now in the Real World(tm) that's exactly what you would expect to happen. But this isn't the Real World(tm). We have the option of fixing what happens for the sake of the story.

Should Evil Triumph? Should Dulinor benefit from his crimes? Do his ends justify his means? Or should he meet an ignominious end at the hands of some of the lowly citizens who he claimed to champion, and actually oppressed? And so on.

(And should we preserve as much of OTU canon as we can? Why shouldn't we use the death of Dulinor story, since we are using the death of Brzk?)

Of course, each of us will come up with our own answers. That's fine. The point of talking about it is an exercise in comparing notes, and having a bit of a chat, not an exercise in proving who's right.

Really, in the end, it's an exercise in creative writing. The goals are two-fold. First, of course, we want to rationalise our individual choices of roleplaying settings. Second, we want the best possible stories that do that. We want the setting to be interesting - something people will want to play in and learn about.

And whatever works for that is good.
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  #78  
Old March 24th, 2005, 10:31 PM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aramis:
And Dulinor Wouldn't feel bad about it.
Yes. Or no more than an experienced hypocrite could rationalise away.

Dulinor would have won. Period.

All the stuff he did would have been justified.

The ends would have justified the means.

OK, now in the Real World(tm) that's exactly what you would expect to happen. But this isn't the Real World(tm). We have the option of fixing what happens for the sake of the story.

Should Evil Triumph? Should Dulinor benefit from his crimes? Do his ends justify his means? Or should he meet an ignominious end at the hands of some of the lowly citizens who he claimed to champion, and actually oppressed? And so on.

(And should we preserve as much of OTU canon as we can? Why shouldn't we use the death of Dulinor story, since we are using the death of Brzk?)

Of course, each of us will come up with our own answers. That's fine. The point of talking about it is an exercise in comparing notes, and having a bit of a chat, not an exercise in proving who's right.

Really, in the end, it's an exercise in creative writing. The goals are two-fold. First, of course, we want to rationalise our individual choices of roleplaying settings. Second, we want the best possible stories that do that. We want the setting to be interesting - something people will want to play in and learn about.

And whatever works for that is good.
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  #79  
Old March 24th, 2005, 10:41 PM
alanb alanb is offline
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Just a thought about "what's wrong with Dulinor"...

His entire plan is top-down. It seems as though Dulinor and some of his fellow zealots have come up with a Master Plan, which they have proceeded to attempt to impose upon reality regardless of the cost.

They don't seem to have actually asked the people it is supposed to benefit what they think about it all...

Just a thought.
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  #80  
Old March 24th, 2005, 10:41 PM
alanb alanb is offline
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Just a thought about "what's wrong with Dulinor"...

His entire plan is top-down. It seems as though Dulinor and some of his fellow zealots have come up with a Master Plan, which they have proceeded to attempt to impose upon reality regardless of the cost.

They don't seem to have actually asked the people it is supposed to benefit what they think about it all...

Just a thought.
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