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MegaTraveller Discuss of the MegaTraveller ruleset and the Rebellion Milieu

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  #261  
Old May 1st, 2005, 09:08 PM
Lord Iron Wolf Lord Iron Wolf is offline
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Excellent piece of analysis Whipsnade and I agree with you 100% on the Assassination of Strephon being a plot tool to plunge Imperium into chaos (the near ideal gaming environment.)

When I originally formulated the theory that I started the thread with I was home for a week with illness. On the history channel I caught a series called "World War I in Color." Since I'm a Traveller fan I couldn't help but notice some events that looked familiar from MegaTraveller and the chaos the Imperium was plunged into (and apparently never will come out of [post Virus].)

The parallels I drew were for debate and have been debated. I was curious about an alternate ending for The Rebellion and if it would be a worthwhile scenario to game in. i.e. the Virus doesn't exist in MegaTraveller.

I also find it curious how the debate went from the end of the Rebellion to its beginning and the plot holes there.

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  #262  
Old May 1st, 2005, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aramis:
[qb]I doubt that Dulinor was quite that isolated in his conspiracy.
Aramis,

Poor essay construction on my part, there. The Barracks Boobs were isolated. Dulinor's attempt failed because of Dulinor. He didn't have the stomach for it and Murphy showed up in spades.

Quote:
The escape plan was probably a backup, and when it got invoked, his moot-friends decided to let him swing in the breeze...
Oh yes indeedy! A Moot more involved in Dulinor's plot may help explain the oddly inffectual Moot Lucan so easily cowed in the immediate aftermath of the Assassination. It seems that some of the Moot's members are afraid to speak out and others are looking simply to bug out because there is real, undeniable, no need to make it up, evidence of their role in the plot just waiting to be uncovered. So, during those first few horrible months during which time Lucan gave the orders that destroyed the Third Imperium, a sizeable fraction of the Moot kept quiet and took great care to bring no notice to themselves as a way to save their skins.

Of course, Lucan would eventually turn on them anyway, but that was in the future.

Quote:
Dulinor probably realized the wrong strephon when the Empress didn't react as expected...
Hmmm, that's a wrinkle I never heard before. I have MT's RSB but the story there is pretty dry. The only reaction by any sophont in the Octagon is that of the Yerlyaruiwo ambassador to put himself between Iffie and Dulinor's magnum.

I still like your idea though. Upon his arrival at Capital (or perhaps even before reaching that system) Dulinor is informed that the real Strephon is away. Sadly, the timing demands of the Plot require that it go forward anyhow. Equally sadly, Iolanthe and Iphegenia are now added to the hit list because they'll know that the Strephon in the Octagon isn't the real one. (I'm sure others in the Imperial household who knew of the trip to Longbow II and the clone's presence were added to the Mop Up list.)

Killing those two 'extras', plus the Aslan, and bugging out for Dlan when the rest of the Imperial Guard gets stroppy, doomed Dulinor's attempt. What a slender reed to base a plot upon. Dulinor didn't even have feet of clay, more like jello.

Quote:
... but taking out more than his one target was the fatal political error.
Agreed. He could have bugged out and still kept his claim to the Throne. The Moot would have to confirm Iffie after all and Dulinor's support in the Moot would not have evaporated. Killing Io, Iffie, and the Aslan along with 'Strephon' meant that Dulinor was now a common murderer and not a heroic tyrannicide.

Quote:
Likewise, if t had been the real strephon, he'd have had no need to kill Iolanthe, nor the empress... simply inform her that her Emperor wishes her to be his empress... and then kept her very well guarded, for his own sake. (The guards are as much to protect him as her...)
Hmmm... I'd pension Iolanthe off, under suitable guard of course, but...

Have you ever seen the, as far as I know, lone illo of Dulinor's wife? It's in the issue of DGP's Traveller Digest in which the Four Knights reach finally Capital. She (I can't remember her name off hand) is something like 30 years older than Dully and looks like the sort of stuffy society dame featured in the Three Stooges shorts. You know, she hires them to fix the doorbell, they scare off all the help before the big party, then volunteer to fill in as cooks & butlers, and screw up everything and anything until she chases them off while firing shotgun blasts into their asses as they run away. I mean, who would want to be married to a dame like that?

Iolanthe isn't a fashion plate; check her out in G:Traveller, and she's 18 years olders than Dully, but she's got to be better than that old battleaxe back on Dlan. After all, she's put up with Strephon all these years!


Have fun,
Bill
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  #263  
Old May 1st, 2005, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aramis:
[qb]I doubt that Dulinor was quite that isolated in his conspiracy.
Aramis,

Poor essay construction on my part, there. The Barracks Boobs were isolated. Dulinor's attempt failed because of Dulinor. He didn't have the stomach for it and Murphy showed up in spades.

Quote:
The escape plan was probably a backup, and when it got invoked, his moot-friends decided to let him swing in the breeze...
Oh yes indeedy! A Moot more involved in Dulinor's plot may help explain the oddly inffectual Moot Lucan so easily cowed in the immediate aftermath of the Assassination. It seems that some of the Moot's members are afraid to speak out and others are looking simply to bug out because there is real, undeniable, no need to make it up, evidence of their role in the plot just waiting to be uncovered. So, during those first few horrible months during which time Lucan gave the orders that destroyed the Third Imperium, a sizeable fraction of the Moot kept quiet and took great care to bring no notice to themselves as a way to save their skins.

Of course, Lucan would eventually turn on them anyway, but that was in the future.

Quote:
Dulinor probably realized the wrong strephon when the Empress didn't react as expected...
Hmmm, that's a wrinkle I never heard before. I have MT's RSB but the story there is pretty dry. The only reaction by any sophont in the Octagon is that of the Yerlyaruiwo ambassador to put himself between Iffie and Dulinor's magnum.

I still like your idea though. Upon his arrival at Capital (or perhaps even before reaching that system) Dulinor is informed that the real Strephon is away. Sadly, the timing demands of the Plot require that it go forward anyhow. Equally sadly, Iolanthe and Iphegenia are now added to the hit list because they'll know that the Strephon in the Octagon isn't the real one. (I'm sure others in the Imperial household who knew of the trip to Longbow II and the clone's presence were added to the Mop Up list.)

Killing those two 'extras', plus the Aslan, and bugging out for Dlan when the rest of the Imperial Guard gets stroppy, doomed Dulinor's attempt. What a slender reed to base a plot upon. Dulinor didn't even have feet of clay, more like jello.

Quote:
... but taking out more than his one target was the fatal political error.
Agreed. He could have bugged out and still kept his claim to the Throne. The Moot would have to confirm Iffie after all and Dulinor's support in the Moot would not have evaporated. Killing Io, Iffie, and the Aslan along with 'Strephon' meant that Dulinor was now a common murderer and not a heroic tyrannicide.

Quote:
Likewise, if t had been the real strephon, he'd have had no need to kill Iolanthe, nor the empress... simply inform her that her Emperor wishes her to be his empress... and then kept her very well guarded, for his own sake. (The guards are as much to protect him as her...)
Hmmm... I'd pension Iolanthe off, under suitable guard of course, but...

Have you ever seen the, as far as I know, lone illo of Dulinor's wife? It's in the issue of DGP's Traveller Digest in which the Four Knights reach finally Capital. She (I can't remember her name off hand) is something like 30 years older than Dully and looks like the sort of stuffy society dame featured in the Three Stooges shorts. You know, she hires them to fix the doorbell, they scare off all the help before the big party, then volunteer to fill in as cooks & butlers, and screw up everything and anything until she chases them off while firing shotgun blasts into their asses as they run away. I mean, who would want to be married to a dame like that?

Iolanthe isn't a fashion plate; check her out in G:Traveller, and she's 18 years olders than Dully, but she's got to be better than that old battleaxe back on Dlan. After all, she's put up with Strephon all these years!


Have fun,
Bill
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  #264  
Old May 1st, 2005, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aramis:
[qb]I doubt that Dulinor was quite that isolated in his conspiracy.
Aramis,

Poor essay construction on my part, there. The Barracks Boobs were isolated. Dulinor's attempt failed because of Dulinor. He didn't have the stomach for it and Murphy showed up in spades.

Quote:
The escape plan was probably a backup, and when it got invoked, his moot-friends decided to let him swing in the breeze...
Oh yes indeedy! A Moot more involved in Dulinor's plot may help explain the oddly inffectual Moot Lucan so easily cowed in the immediate aftermath of the Assassination. It seems that some of the Moot's members are afraid to speak out and others are looking simply to bug out because there is real, undeniable, no need to make it up, evidence of their role in the plot just waiting to be uncovered. So, during those first few horrible months during which time Lucan gave the orders that destroyed the Third Imperium, a sizeable fraction of the Moot kept quiet and took great care to bring no notice to themselves as a way to save their skins.

Of course, Lucan would eventually turn on them anyway, but that was in the future.

Quote:
Dulinor probably realized the wrong strephon when the Empress didn't react as expected...
Hmmm, that's a wrinkle I never heard before. I have MT's RSB but the story there is pretty dry. The only reaction by any sophont in the Octagon is that of the Yerlyaruiwo ambassador to put himself between Iffie and Dulinor's magnum.

I still like your idea though. Upon his arrival at Capital (or perhaps even before reaching that system) Dulinor is informed that the real Strephon is away. Sadly, the timing demands of the Plot require that it go forward anyhow. Equally sadly, Iolanthe and Iphegenia are now added to the hit list because they'll know that the Strephon in the Octagon isn't the real one. (I'm sure others in the Imperial household who knew of the trip to Longbow II and the clone's presence were added to the Mop Up list.)

Killing those two 'extras', plus the Aslan, and bugging out for Dlan when the rest of the Imperial Guard gets stroppy, doomed Dulinor's attempt. What a slender reed to base a plot upon. Dulinor didn't even have feet of clay, more like jello.

Quote:
... but taking out more than his one target was the fatal political error.
Agreed. He could have bugged out and still kept his claim to the Throne. The Moot would have to confirm Iffie after all and Dulinor's support in the Moot would not have evaporated. Killing Io, Iffie, and the Aslan along with 'Strephon' meant that Dulinor was now a common murderer and not a heroic tyrannicide.

Quote:
Likewise, if t had been the real strephon, he'd have had no need to kill Iolanthe, nor the empress... simply inform her that her Emperor wishes her to be his empress... and then kept her very well guarded, for his own sake. (The guards are as much to protect him as her...)
Hmmm... I'd pension Iolanthe off, under suitable guard of course, but...

Have you ever seen the, as far as I know, lone illo of Dulinor's wife? It's in the issue of DGP's Traveller Digest in which the Four Knights reach finally Capital. She (I can't remember her name off hand) is something like 30 years older than Dully and looks like the sort of stuffy society dame featured in the Three Stooges shorts. You know, she hires them to fix the doorbell, they scare off all the help before the big party, then volunteer to fill in as cooks & butlers, and screw up everything and anything until she chases them off while firing shotgun blasts into their asses as they run away. I mean, who would want to be married to a dame like that?

Iolanthe isn't a fashion plate; check her out in G:Traveller, and she's 18 years olders than Dully, but she's got to be better than that old battleaxe back on Dlan. After all, she's put up with Strephon all these years!


Have fun,
Bill
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  #265  
Old May 1st, 2005, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf: I was curious about an alternate ending for The Rebellion and if it would be a worthwhile scenario to game in. i.e. the Virus doesn't exist in MegaTraveller.
Wolf,

DGP had a few different endings in mind. One involved the 'Baddies from the Core'. Another roped in an Antares supernova. They published a few notes regarding both in their last Traveller publication, MTJ #4.

FWIW, I didn't see then and still don't see how either would stop the Rebellion. Some unknown aliens are wreaking havoc with the Zhos and threatening the Marches? Ho hum, here in Daibei we got the Sollies to worry about. A star has gone nova on the coreward edge of Lucan's faction? Too bad, it'll take years for the effect to felt beyond the bounds of the original system and Lucan is welcome to take care of it anyway.

Late MT sources - and by late I mean those bits of MT that were dealing only with MT and not being used to set the stage for TNE like Survival Margin - hinted at a few endings. The war was shuddering down into a 'mutual exhaustion' phase, none of the factions could even dream of building or supporting the armadas of 1117 - 1119. (IMHO, Dulinor's Coronation Fleet is like SM, another MT bit being used to set the stage for TNE.)

Ceasefires, gentlemens' understandings, and the first stirrings of diplomatic relations are beginning to appear between Craig, Margeret, Antares, Vland, and even Dulinor. (Only the obviously lunatic Lucan has been left out of the dance.) These different factions all agreeing to disagree. They'll leave each other alone in their own patches, try to fight the slide into the Long Night in their territories , and - maybe - even help each other with regards to Lucan's Black War attacks.

Craig and Margeret in turn are coming to terms with the Sollies. Neither side can beat the other and both have internal troubles. Peace, or at least a long ceasefire, are in order.

I suspect a non-Virus ending for the Rebellion would be a whimper and not a bang. A campaign there would find several mini-Imperiums separated by hundreds of parsecs of Wilds dotted with pocket empires.

It would be an excellent setting in which to play.

Quote:
I also find it curious how the debate went from the end of the Rebellion to its beginning and the plot holes there.
Threads morph. {shrug}


Have fun,
Bill
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  #266  
Old May 1st, 2005, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf: I was curious about an alternate ending for The Rebellion and if it would be a worthwhile scenario to game in. i.e. the Virus doesn't exist in MegaTraveller.
Wolf,

DGP had a few different endings in mind. One involved the 'Baddies from the Core'. Another roped in an Antares supernova. They published a few notes regarding both in their last Traveller publication, MTJ #4.

FWIW, I didn't see then and still don't see how either would stop the Rebellion. Some unknown aliens are wreaking havoc with the Zhos and threatening the Marches? Ho hum, here in Daibei we got the Sollies to worry about. A star has gone nova on the coreward edge of Lucan's faction? Too bad, it'll take years for the effect to felt beyond the bounds of the original system and Lucan is welcome to take care of it anyway.

Late MT sources - and by late I mean those bits of MT that were dealing only with MT and not being used to set the stage for TNE like Survival Margin - hinted at a few endings. The war was shuddering down into a 'mutual exhaustion' phase, none of the factions could even dream of building or supporting the armadas of 1117 - 1119. (IMHO, Dulinor's Coronation Fleet is like SM, another MT bit being used to set the stage for TNE.)

Ceasefires, gentlemens' understandings, and the first stirrings of diplomatic relations are beginning to appear between Craig, Margeret, Antares, Vland, and even Dulinor. (Only the obviously lunatic Lucan has been left out of the dance.) These different factions all agreeing to disagree. They'll leave each other alone in their own patches, try to fight the slide into the Long Night in their territories , and - maybe - even help each other with regards to Lucan's Black War attacks.

Craig and Margeret in turn are coming to terms with the Sollies. Neither side can beat the other and both have internal troubles. Peace, or at least a long ceasefire, are in order.

I suspect a non-Virus ending for the Rebellion would be a whimper and not a bang. A campaign there would find several mini-Imperiums separated by hundreds of parsecs of Wilds dotted with pocket empires.

It would be an excellent setting in which to play.

Quote:
I also find it curious how the debate went from the end of the Rebellion to its beginning and the plot holes there.
Threads morph. {shrug}


Have fun,
Bill
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  #267  
Old May 1st, 2005, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf: I was curious about an alternate ending for The Rebellion and if it would be a worthwhile scenario to game in. i.e. the Virus doesn't exist in MegaTraveller.
Wolf,

DGP had a few different endings in mind. One involved the 'Baddies from the Core'. Another roped in an Antares supernova. They published a few notes regarding both in their last Traveller publication, MTJ #4.

FWIW, I didn't see then and still don't see how either would stop the Rebellion. Some unknown aliens are wreaking havoc with the Zhos and threatening the Marches? Ho hum, here in Daibei we got the Sollies to worry about. A star has gone nova on the coreward edge of Lucan's faction? Too bad, it'll take years for the effect to felt beyond the bounds of the original system and Lucan is welcome to take care of it anyway.

Late MT sources - and by late I mean those bits of MT that were dealing only with MT and not being used to set the stage for TNE like Survival Margin - hinted at a few endings. The war was shuddering down into a 'mutual exhaustion' phase, none of the factions could even dream of building or supporting the armadas of 1117 - 1119. (IMHO, Dulinor's Coronation Fleet is like SM, another MT bit being used to set the stage for TNE.)

Ceasefires, gentlemens' understandings, and the first stirrings of diplomatic relations are beginning to appear between Craig, Margeret, Antares, Vland, and even Dulinor. (Only the obviously lunatic Lucan has been left out of the dance.) These different factions all agreeing to disagree. They'll leave each other alone in their own patches, try to fight the slide into the Long Night in their territories , and - maybe - even help each other with regards to Lucan's Black War attacks.

Craig and Margeret in turn are coming to terms with the Sollies. Neither side can beat the other and both have internal troubles. Peace, or at least a long ceasefire, are in order.

I suspect a non-Virus ending for the Rebellion would be a whimper and not a bang. A campaign there would find several mini-Imperiums separated by hundreds of parsecs of Wilds dotted with pocket empires.

It would be an excellent setting in which to play.

Quote:
I also find it curious how the debate went from the end of the Rebellion to its beginning and the plot holes there.
Threads morph. {shrug}


Have fun,
Bill
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  #268  
Old May 2nd, 2005, 04:24 PM
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Actually, Larsen, I suspect he wasn't told Strephon was out... I suspect he went in, saw the clone, started in, and realized Io and Iffie Were reaching calmly for guns, rather than screaming for guards...

And THEN it hits him... he shoots them to keep his hide intact, and THEN checks and finds the clone tatoo on the base of the neck... and realizes, "Oh, no, NOW it's treason!", gives the bug out, and runs ...

(Just remember, its like Norris' Warrant... if he succeeds, it's self-justified. If it fails, it's high treason...)


as to the debate shifting, one can not find the end of a thing intelligible unless one can see the beginning.

Larsen and I, and a couple others, have been trying desperately to divine the cause of the rebellion.

Larsen's essay put to me the fundamental cause being: the moot wanted strephon out, and Dulinor wanted strephon's job, so the moot said "Go for it! If you do, we'll back you!". Dulinor botches the job due to last minute changes in Strephon's Itinerary (Survival margin), getting a clone. We know he hits Io and Iffie, too (with no apparent reasoning in canon), and bugs out (again, reasoning not being in canon).

By divining the details though group consensus, we make our own games better, and the end of the rebellion makes more sense; If dulinor was a lone gunman on a wild hair, he'd stand no chance of making the bid on capital a second time.
If instead, Dulinor is agent of the Moot, his bid on capital a second time is worthy; he's acting upon a commission given him by his peers, and has everything to gain by the second assault.

Margaret, Craig and Brzk all obviously then have foreknowledge, and were ready to maneuver when Dulinor screwed up. Lucan was simply mad...
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  #269  
Old May 2nd, 2005, 04:24 PM
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Actually, Larsen, I suspect he wasn't told Strephon was out... I suspect he went in, saw the clone, started in, and realized Io and Iffie Were reaching calmly for guns, rather than screaming for guards...

And THEN it hits him... he shoots them to keep his hide intact, and THEN checks and finds the clone tatoo on the base of the neck... and realizes, "Oh, no, NOW it's treason!", gives the bug out, and runs ...

(Just remember, its like Norris' Warrant... if he succeeds, it's self-justified. If it fails, it's high treason...)


as to the debate shifting, one can not find the end of a thing intelligible unless one can see the beginning.

Larsen and I, and a couple others, have been trying desperately to divine the cause of the rebellion.

Larsen's essay put to me the fundamental cause being: the moot wanted strephon out, and Dulinor wanted strephon's job, so the moot said "Go for it! If you do, we'll back you!". Dulinor botches the job due to last minute changes in Strephon's Itinerary (Survival margin), getting a clone. We know he hits Io and Iffie, too (with no apparent reasoning in canon), and bugs out (again, reasoning not being in canon).

By divining the details though group consensus, we make our own games better, and the end of the rebellion makes more sense; If dulinor was a lone gunman on a wild hair, he'd stand no chance of making the bid on capital a second time.
If instead, Dulinor is agent of the Moot, his bid on capital a second time is worthy; he's acting upon a commission given him by his peers, and has everything to gain by the second assault.

Margaret, Craig and Brzk all obviously then have foreknowledge, and were ready to maneuver when Dulinor screwed up. Lucan was simply mad...
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Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
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  #270  
Old May 2nd, 2005, 04:24 PM
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Actually, Larsen, I suspect he wasn't told Strephon was out... I suspect he went in, saw the clone, started in, and realized Io and Iffie Were reaching calmly for guns, rather than screaming for guards...

And THEN it hits him... he shoots them to keep his hide intact, and THEN checks and finds the clone tatoo on the base of the neck... and realizes, "Oh, no, NOW it's treason!", gives the bug out, and runs ...

(Just remember, its like Norris' Warrant... if he succeeds, it's self-justified. If it fails, it's high treason...)


as to the debate shifting, one can not find the end of a thing intelligible unless one can see the beginning.

Larsen and I, and a couple others, have been trying desperately to divine the cause of the rebellion.

Larsen's essay put to me the fundamental cause being: the moot wanted strephon out, and Dulinor wanted strephon's job, so the moot said "Go for it! If you do, we'll back you!". Dulinor botches the job due to last minute changes in Strephon's Itinerary (Survival margin), getting a clone. We know he hits Io and Iffie, too (with no apparent reasoning in canon), and bugs out (again, reasoning not being in canon).

By divining the details though group consensus, we make our own games better, and the end of the rebellion makes more sense; If dulinor was a lone gunman on a wild hair, he'd stand no chance of making the bid on capital a second time.
If instead, Dulinor is agent of the Moot, his bid on capital a second time is worthy; he's acting upon a commission given him by his peers, and has everything to gain by the second assault.

Margaret, Craig and Brzk all obviously then have foreknowledge, and were ready to maneuver when Dulinor screwed up. Lucan was simply mad...
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