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MegaTraveller Discuss of the MegaTraveller ruleset and the Rebellion Milieu

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  #141  
Old March 29th, 2005, 10:40 AM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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I'm afraid, Alan, that you are too modern in your thinking. If Dulinor had offed the others, and made claim, he has a *legitemate* legal right to the throne (thank you very much, world's stupidest policy on leader removal). I don't think the fleets would have turned against him, because many of the nobles would have recognized his legal rights and he could justly have called on them to bring the local Imperial forces to heel.

Further, an interesting twist on the story could be this, and we don't know: How many of the nobles on Capital were Dulinor sympathizers? Or just hated Strephon? Historically, many Kings were disliked by their closest rivals for power and those sometimes geographically closest to them (sometimes this was a Machiavellian decision to keep them under the leader's thumb). Having said that, if there were enough people who were sympathizers or just wanted *any* change in management, and if he had managed the 'clean broom' move, even Strephon loyalists would have had no one to be loyal to. At that point, Dulinor looks like the only viable option.

Of course, this won't preclude a few IG die hards taking a shot at the assassin. But that's why Dulinor has his IG. In addition to smuggling in dud weapons for the other gaurd, his gaurd should have brought in some nukes or some other mechanism to inflict significant damage to the local non-Ilelish IG units. They're his most likely threat vector. Smash them, and you're localized threat is gone. By the time an external response can be mounted, you're done and the deal is fait accomplit.

Keep in mind about Capital: Ships are coming and going. But ask yourself this - How much of US military force is present in Washington? Lots of its administration, and some significant force, but relative to the overall force, very little and very little of it the heavy stuff. Similarly, Ottawa, London, Bonn, etc. I think you'll find that in many cases, the core system might well have a lot of police, a lot of military administration, but actual front line combat units might be few and far between. So you shatter the nearby threats, a real response might be hard to muster. Sure, they can call for help... at the speed of jump...

You don't keep good combat units sitting on their hands a Capital. They don't get much combat experience within a few parsecs of your administrative center (or at least not pre-Rebellion!). So you'll tend to have 'security' but the 3I has been so stagnant for several hundred years that it wouldn't surprise me if even that was lax.
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  #142  
Old March 29th, 2005, 07:31 PM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaladorn:
If Dulinor had offed the others, and made claim, he has a *legitemate* legal right to the throne (thank you very much, world's stupidest policy on leader removal). I don't think the fleets would have turned against him, because many of the nobles would have recognized his legal rights and he could justly have called on them to bring the local Imperial forces to heel.
...
You don't keep good combat units sitting on their hands a Capital. They don't get much combat experience within a few parsecs of your administrative center (or at least not pre-Rebellion!).
Well, no.

Right of Assassination was a piece of nonsense dreamed up to rationalise palace coups. It hadn't been used for over 500 years.

The only way it would be legitimate would be if Dulinor could convince the Moot to recognise him, or at least intimidate them through his control of the fleets.

Failing that, he's just another traitor. The classic version of the joke (according to Google!) is as follows:

"Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."
- Sir John Harrington (1561-1612)

Dulinor's legitimacy is entirely dependent on success. Even if he was initially successful, he could lose legitimacy by alienating the nobility.

And then people would start thinking about exercising Right of Assassination themselves...

As for combat units at Capital... You most certainly want them there. There are three major reasons for this.

One, keeping major fleet elements back from the borders allow them to be sent to major trouble spots as required. Core sector is only a single sector away from the Vargr border, and not much further away from the trailing frontier. The Core fleet serves the same strategic reserve role as the Corridor fleet.

Second, internal conflict within the Imperium is far from unknown. The Imperium needs forces available to deal with internal threats, as well as external ones.

Third, there are other ambitious warlords out there with their own fleets. The Emperor needs to cover himself against them. The last major Imperial civil war was only a little over a century before Dulinor's plot. Before that there had been Styryx's abdication. That had been handled "in-house", but it need not have been. Before that there were the Psionics Suppressions, the power struggles during the Regency of Antiama, and all the other nastiness and near-misses.

The Emperor/Empress stays on the throne because he/she can call upon sufficient strength to ward off potential challengers.

Note that the forces in Capital system itself would only be part of the forces available within Core Sector. But they would be there in strength.

No doubt units would be periodically swapped between the Core fleet and other fleets to keep the level of competence consistent. But we shouldn't get too excited about imagining any vast disparity of competence between the frontier and central fleets. Most of the former probably see little or no action for decades at a time, and their senior officers spend lots of time hanging out at the local Ducal courts.

It's not a case of pampered Praetorian Guards versus hardened veterans of the frontier, or anything like that.
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  #143  
Old March 29th, 2005, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaladorn:
If Dulinor had offed the others, and made claim, he has a *legitemate* legal right to the throne (thank you very much, world's stupidest policy on leader removal). I don't think the fleets would have turned against him, because many of the nobles would have recognized his legal rights and he could justly have called on them to bring the local Imperial forces to heel.
...
You don't keep good combat units sitting on their hands a Capital. They don't get much combat experience within a few parsecs of your administrative center (or at least not pre-Rebellion!).
Well, no.

Right of Assassination was a piece of nonsense dreamed up to rationalise palace coups. It hadn't been used for over 500 years.

The only way it would be legitimate would be if Dulinor could convince the Moot to recognise him, or at least intimidate them through his control of the fleets.

Failing that, he's just another traitor. The classic version of the joke (according to Google!) is as follows:

"Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."
- Sir John Harrington (1561-1612)

Dulinor's legitimacy is entirely dependent on success. Even if he was initially successful, he could lose legitimacy by alienating the nobility.

And then people would start thinking about exercising Right of Assassination themselves...

As for combat units at Capital... You most certainly want them there. There are three major reasons for this.

One, keeping major fleet elements back from the borders allow them to be sent to major trouble spots as required. Core sector is only a single sector away from the Vargr border, and not much further away from the trailing frontier. The Core fleet serves the same strategic reserve role as the Corridor fleet.

Second, internal conflict within the Imperium is far from unknown. The Imperium needs forces available to deal with internal threats, as well as external ones.

Third, there are other ambitious warlords out there with their own fleets. The Emperor needs to cover himself against them. The last major Imperial civil war was only a little over a century before Dulinor's plot. Before that there had been Styryx's abdication. That had been handled "in-house", but it need not have been. Before that there were the Psionics Suppressions, the power struggles during the Regency of Antiama, and all the other nastiness and near-misses.

The Emperor/Empress stays on the throne because he/she can call upon sufficient strength to ward off potential challengers.

Note that the forces in Capital system itself would only be part of the forces available within Core Sector. But they would be there in strength.

No doubt units would be periodically swapped between the Core fleet and other fleets to keep the level of competence consistent. But we shouldn't get too excited about imagining any vast disparity of competence between the frontier and central fleets. Most of the former probably see little or no action for decades at a time, and their senior officers spend lots of time hanging out at the local Ducal courts.

It's not a case of pampered Praetorian Guards versus hardened veterans of the frontier, or anything like that.
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  #144  
Old March 29th, 2005, 07:31 PM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaladorn:
If Dulinor had offed the others, and made claim, he has a *legitemate* legal right to the throne (thank you very much, world's stupidest policy on leader removal). I don't think the fleets would have turned against him, because many of the nobles would have recognized his legal rights and he could justly have called on them to bring the local Imperial forces to heel.
...
You don't keep good combat units sitting on their hands a Capital. They don't get much combat experience within a few parsecs of your administrative center (or at least not pre-Rebellion!).
Well, no.

Right of Assassination was a piece of nonsense dreamed up to rationalise palace coups. It hadn't been used for over 500 years.

The only way it would be legitimate would be if Dulinor could convince the Moot to recognise him, or at least intimidate them through his control of the fleets.

Failing that, he's just another traitor. The classic version of the joke (according to Google!) is as follows:

"Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."
- Sir John Harrington (1561-1612)

Dulinor's legitimacy is entirely dependent on success. Even if he was initially successful, he could lose legitimacy by alienating the nobility.

And then people would start thinking about exercising Right of Assassination themselves...

As for combat units at Capital... You most certainly want them there. There are three major reasons for this.

One, keeping major fleet elements back from the borders allow them to be sent to major trouble spots as required. Core sector is only a single sector away from the Vargr border, and not much further away from the trailing frontier. The Core fleet serves the same strategic reserve role as the Corridor fleet.

Second, internal conflict within the Imperium is far from unknown. The Imperium needs forces available to deal with internal threats, as well as external ones.

Third, there are other ambitious warlords out there with their own fleets. The Emperor needs to cover himself against them. The last major Imperial civil war was only a little over a century before Dulinor's plot. Before that there had been Styryx's abdication. That had been handled "in-house", but it need not have been. Before that there were the Psionics Suppressions, the power struggles during the Regency of Antiama, and all the other nastiness and near-misses.

The Emperor/Empress stays on the throne because he/she can call upon sufficient strength to ward off potential challengers.

Note that the forces in Capital system itself would only be part of the forces available within Core Sector. But they would be there in strength.

No doubt units would be periodically swapped between the Core fleet and other fleets to keep the level of competence consistent. But we shouldn't get too excited about imagining any vast disparity of competence between the frontier and central fleets. Most of the former probably see little or no action for decades at a time, and their senior officers spend lots of time hanging out at the local Ducal courts.

It's not a case of pampered Praetorian Guards versus hardened veterans of the frontier, or anything like that.
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  #145  
Old March 29th, 2005, 07:46 PM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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1. The Right of Assassination may be disused, but it was never struck from the books.

2. Your comments about Dulinor's legitemacy are correct. But at the same time, if he'd made a clean sweep and arrived with a whole whack of long-awaited reforms (especially by the nobles in question, not saying this is the case, but who can say?) or a pile of buy-off options, he'd have a pretty good chance. And once confirmed.... he's in. I don't see the Moot being fond of reversing itself.

3. Your Imperial fleets are as likely to be run through with supporters of other nobles as every other part of the Imperium. And the ones near the core will have less regular combat drill than those on the frontiers where active wars have been fought - not 100 years ago, but a decade ago. The guys in the center probably have a bit better tech, but less actual experience. And they probably also, having less of a single galvanizing threat, have more divided loyalties.

And as I said, once Strephon is dead, once the Princess is dead, once the brothers unsavory are dead, and once the Empress is dead, then there really is a situation where the fleets, if they act against Dulinor, may well be acting against the interests of their patrons (the local Dukes, etc, who actually may be siding with Dulinor). In such times of unrest, bold men tend to pay the price for boldness. This tends to make many leaders cautious in this kind of scenario. So, if he'd cleaned house successfully, he may well have been able to assert control over capital in a fashion that does not require outright control of the fleets.

Taken another way:

If you are right, and the only way to win is to have enough fleets, and if we assume the competence you suggest and the rotation of officers and whatnot, then Dulinor *could not* have gotten sufficient force in place without being noticed, no way. So if this is the case, you condemn him to the role of prize idiot.

If I'm right, if there are ways (through buying off the nobles, having enough disaffected ones agree with him, getting the house cleaning done) he could actually assert quick control over Capital itself, then the Fleets might well just fall in line. Their patrons might 'recommend' to any Captain that it is unwise to try to fight what is already a lost battle. In this model, Dulinor *had* some chance of success, he just failed. But he isn't reduced to the Prince in the Kingdom of Idiots....

Hence why I suggest that there has to be another way he could have worked this.
__________________
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  #146  
Old March 29th, 2005, 07:46 PM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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1. The Right of Assassination may be disused, but it was never struck from the books.

2. Your comments about Dulinor's legitemacy are correct. But at the same time, if he'd made a clean sweep and arrived with a whole whack of long-awaited reforms (especially by the nobles in question, not saying this is the case, but who can say?) or a pile of buy-off options, he'd have a pretty good chance. And once confirmed.... he's in. I don't see the Moot being fond of reversing itself.

3. Your Imperial fleets are as likely to be run through with supporters of other nobles as every other part of the Imperium. And the ones near the core will have less regular combat drill than those on the frontiers where active wars have been fought - not 100 years ago, but a decade ago. The guys in the center probably have a bit better tech, but less actual experience. And they probably also, having less of a single galvanizing threat, have more divided loyalties.

And as I said, once Strephon is dead, once the Princess is dead, once the brothers unsavory are dead, and once the Empress is dead, then there really is a situation where the fleets, if they act against Dulinor, may well be acting against the interests of their patrons (the local Dukes, etc, who actually may be siding with Dulinor). In such times of unrest, bold men tend to pay the price for boldness. This tends to make many leaders cautious in this kind of scenario. So, if he'd cleaned house successfully, he may well have been able to assert control over capital in a fashion that does not require outright control of the fleets.

Taken another way:

If you are right, and the only way to win is to have enough fleets, and if we assume the competence you suggest and the rotation of officers and whatnot, then Dulinor *could not* have gotten sufficient force in place without being noticed, no way. So if this is the case, you condemn him to the role of prize idiot.

If I'm right, if there are ways (through buying off the nobles, having enough disaffected ones agree with him, getting the house cleaning done) he could actually assert quick control over Capital itself, then the Fleets might well just fall in line. Their patrons might 'recommend' to any Captain that it is unwise to try to fight what is already a lost battle. In this model, Dulinor *had* some chance of success, he just failed. But he isn't reduced to the Prince in the Kingdom of Idiots....

Hence why I suggest that there has to be another way he could have worked this.
__________________
"Tell them, that from this place we will deliver notice to the parliaments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness. And we will hold that line, .. no matter the cost." -- Cpt. Sheridan "The Long, Twilight Struggle"
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  #147  
Old March 29th, 2005, 07:46 PM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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1. The Right of Assassination may be disused, but it was never struck from the books.

2. Your comments about Dulinor's legitemacy are correct. But at the same time, if he'd made a clean sweep and arrived with a whole whack of long-awaited reforms (especially by the nobles in question, not saying this is the case, but who can say?) or a pile of buy-off options, he'd have a pretty good chance. And once confirmed.... he's in. I don't see the Moot being fond of reversing itself.

3. Your Imperial fleets are as likely to be run through with supporters of other nobles as every other part of the Imperium. And the ones near the core will have less regular combat drill than those on the frontiers where active wars have been fought - not 100 years ago, but a decade ago. The guys in the center probably have a bit better tech, but less actual experience. And they probably also, having less of a single galvanizing threat, have more divided loyalties.

And as I said, once Strephon is dead, once the Princess is dead, once the brothers unsavory are dead, and once the Empress is dead, then there really is a situation where the fleets, if they act against Dulinor, may well be acting against the interests of their patrons (the local Dukes, etc, who actually may be siding with Dulinor). In such times of unrest, bold men tend to pay the price for boldness. This tends to make many leaders cautious in this kind of scenario. So, if he'd cleaned house successfully, he may well have been able to assert control over capital in a fashion that does not require outright control of the fleets.

Taken another way:

If you are right, and the only way to win is to have enough fleets, and if we assume the competence you suggest and the rotation of officers and whatnot, then Dulinor *could not* have gotten sufficient force in place without being noticed, no way. So if this is the case, you condemn him to the role of prize idiot.

If I'm right, if there are ways (through buying off the nobles, having enough disaffected ones agree with him, getting the house cleaning done) he could actually assert quick control over Capital itself, then the Fleets might well just fall in line. Their patrons might 'recommend' to any Captain that it is unwise to try to fight what is already a lost battle. In this model, Dulinor *had* some chance of success, he just failed. But he isn't reduced to the Prince in the Kingdom of Idiots....

Hence why I suggest that there has to be another way he could have worked this.
__________________
"Tell them, that from this place we will deliver notice to the parliaments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness. And we will hold that line, .. no matter the cost." -- Cpt. Sheridan "The Long, Twilight Struggle"
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  #148  
Old March 29th, 2005, 08:59 PM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaladorn:
And as I said, once Strephon is dead, once the Princess is dead, once the brothers unsavory are dead, and once the Empress is dead, then there really is a situation where the fleets, if they act against Dulinor, may well be acting against the interests of their patrons (the local Dukes, etc, who actually may be siding with Dulinor). In such times of unrest, bold men tend to pay the price for boldness. This tends to make many leaders cautious in this kind of scenario. So, if he'd cleaned house successfully, he may well have been able to assert control over capital in a fashion that does not require outright control of the fleets.
...
If you are right, and the only way to win is to have enough fleets, and if we assume the competence you suggest and the rotation of officers and whatnot, then Dulinor *could not* have gotten sufficient force in place without being noticed, no way. So if this is the case, you condemn him to the role of prize idiot.
Well, first, he clearly didn't have majority support amongst the Core nobles. His power base was elsewhere.

Second, a bold admiral could very well make himself/herself/itself kingmaker in this situation. Basically: whack Dulinor, seize Capital, auction off the throne. Or, phrasing it more formally, secure Capital on behalf of the Moot. In this kind of situation, an ambitious admiral could well end up as a Duke. Or dead, of course.

As far as Dulinor's plan goes... The decapitation idea isn't particularly a bad one. If he had managed to whack Lucan, the heir to the throne would have been Margaret, way off in Delphi. By the time she could have been notified and have travelled to Capital to take the throne, Dulinor's fleet would be there.

In the meantime, opposition to Dulinor could only have been led by lesser leaders. Admittedly, as it happens, those lesser leaders included Archduke Tranian (explicitly stated to have been on Capital at the time) and maybe Brzk (there's a hint that he may have been present too). They also included a bunch of the usual suspects of the Moot, various palace bureaucrats and so on, so there was a reasonable chance of a viable junta being formed.

Dulinor would have had his supporters in the Moot too, though, and various other factions would have been struggling for influence, so it certainly wouldn't have been a fully unified defence. But I would still tend to place my bets on them holding off Dulinor.

Hmm. Actually I like this setting too. "The Rebellion without Lucan". Margaret ultimately ends up on the throne. The Solomani would be initially successful, but would eventually be pushed back. The Vargr (and Aslan?) incursions would be less successful too. Interesting.

It would be more or less "an intact Imperium with a bunch of wars going on". If you were fortunate enough to live in the right part of the Imperium you probably would barely be aware anything had changed, while if you lived in the wrong part your universe would have collapsed.
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  #149  
Old March 29th, 2005, 08:59 PM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaladorn:
And as I said, once Strephon is dead, once the Princess is dead, once the brothers unsavory are dead, and once the Empress is dead, then there really is a situation where the fleets, if they act against Dulinor, may well be acting against the interests of their patrons (the local Dukes, etc, who actually may be siding with Dulinor). In such times of unrest, bold men tend to pay the price for boldness. This tends to make many leaders cautious in this kind of scenario. So, if he'd cleaned house successfully, he may well have been able to assert control over capital in a fashion that does not require outright control of the fleets.
...
If you are right, and the only way to win is to have enough fleets, and if we assume the competence you suggest and the rotation of officers and whatnot, then Dulinor *could not* have gotten sufficient force in place without being noticed, no way. So if this is the case, you condemn him to the role of prize idiot.
Well, first, he clearly didn't have majority support amongst the Core nobles. His power base was elsewhere.

Second, a bold admiral could very well make himself/herself/itself kingmaker in this situation. Basically: whack Dulinor, seize Capital, auction off the throne. Or, phrasing it more formally, secure Capital on behalf of the Moot. In this kind of situation, an ambitious admiral could well end up as a Duke. Or dead, of course.

As far as Dulinor's plan goes... The decapitation idea isn't particularly a bad one. If he had managed to whack Lucan, the heir to the throne would have been Margaret, way off in Delphi. By the time she could have been notified and have travelled to Capital to take the throne, Dulinor's fleet would be there.

In the meantime, opposition to Dulinor could only have been led by lesser leaders. Admittedly, as it happens, those lesser leaders included Archduke Tranian (explicitly stated to have been on Capital at the time) and maybe Brzk (there's a hint that he may have been present too). They also included a bunch of the usual suspects of the Moot, various palace bureaucrats and so on, so there was a reasonable chance of a viable junta being formed.

Dulinor would have had his supporters in the Moot too, though, and various other factions would have been struggling for influence, so it certainly wouldn't have been a fully unified defence. But I would still tend to place my bets on them holding off Dulinor.

Hmm. Actually I like this setting too. "The Rebellion without Lucan". Margaret ultimately ends up on the throne. The Solomani would be initially successful, but would eventually be pushed back. The Vargr (and Aslan?) incursions would be less successful too. Interesting.

It would be more or less "an intact Imperium with a bunch of wars going on". If you were fortunate enough to live in the right part of the Imperium you probably would barely be aware anything had changed, while if you lived in the wrong part your universe would have collapsed.
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  #150  
Old March 29th, 2005, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaladorn:
And as I said, once Strephon is dead, once the Princess is dead, once the brothers unsavory are dead, and once the Empress is dead, then there really is a situation where the fleets, if they act against Dulinor, may well be acting against the interests of their patrons (the local Dukes, etc, who actually may be siding with Dulinor). In such times of unrest, bold men tend to pay the price for boldness. This tends to make many leaders cautious in this kind of scenario. So, if he'd cleaned house successfully, he may well have been able to assert control over capital in a fashion that does not require outright control of the fleets.
...
If you are right, and the only way to win is to have enough fleets, and if we assume the competence you suggest and the rotation of officers and whatnot, then Dulinor *could not* have gotten sufficient force in place without being noticed, no way. So if this is the case, you condemn him to the role of prize idiot.
Well, first, he clearly didn't have majority support amongst the Core nobles. His power base was elsewhere.

Second, a bold admiral could very well make himself/herself/itself kingmaker in this situation. Basically: whack Dulinor, seize Capital, auction off the throne. Or, phrasing it more formally, secure Capital on behalf of the Moot. In this kind of situation, an ambitious admiral could well end up as a Duke. Or dead, of course.

As far as Dulinor's plan goes... The decapitation idea isn't particularly a bad one. If he had managed to whack Lucan, the heir to the throne would have been Margaret, way off in Delphi. By the time she could have been notified and have travelled to Capital to take the throne, Dulinor's fleet would be there.

In the meantime, opposition to Dulinor could only have been led by lesser leaders. Admittedly, as it happens, those lesser leaders included Archduke Tranian (explicitly stated to have been on Capital at the time) and maybe Brzk (there's a hint that he may have been present too). They also included a bunch of the usual suspects of the Moot, various palace bureaucrats and so on, so there was a reasonable chance of a viable junta being formed.

Dulinor would have had his supporters in the Moot too, though, and various other factions would have been struggling for influence, so it certainly wouldn't have been a fully unified defence. But I would still tend to place my bets on them holding off Dulinor.

Hmm. Actually I like this setting too. "The Rebellion without Lucan". Margaret ultimately ends up on the throne. The Solomani would be initially successful, but would eventually be pushed back. The Vargr (and Aslan?) incursions would be less successful too. Interesting.

It would be more or less "an intact Imperium with a bunch of wars going on". If you were fortunate enough to live in the right part of the Imperium you probably would barely be aware anything had changed, while if you lived in the wrong part your universe would have collapsed.
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