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MegaTraveller Discuss of the MegaTraveller ruleset and the Rebellion Milieu

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  #131  
Old March 28th, 2005, 07:45 PM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Crocker:
If I were planning a coup, I'd like to have more redundancies built in for random factors like, 'what happens if today of all days some member of the Guard accidentally discharges his SMG and finds it loaded with blanks?' and 'what about that idiot cousin, Lucan?'
The hit on Lucan almost succeeded. Varian died, at least. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Clearly Dulinor wasn't able to seize the whole Imperial Palace complex simultaneously. The sheer size of it all, plus presence of the loyal Guard units and similar personnel ensured that.

Sending more than a single assassin would seem like a good idea, but I suppose that getting them through security would be a problem. And sending a backup force once things had come out into the open might not have been possible either. At least not if you wanted them to survive...

We would need decent maps of the Imperial Palace complex, details of the security arrangements, and a whole bunch of stuff to be able to adequately analyse Dulinor's plan. Even then we would need to remember that Dulinor himself wouldn't have had access to all this information, and would be making the best plan possible with the information he had.
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  #132  
Old March 28th, 2005, 07:45 PM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Crocker:
If I were planning a coup, I'd like to have more redundancies built in for random factors like, 'what happens if today of all days some member of the Guard accidentally discharges his SMG and finds it loaded with blanks?' and 'what about that idiot cousin, Lucan?'
The hit on Lucan almost succeeded. Varian died, at least. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Clearly Dulinor wasn't able to seize the whole Imperial Palace complex simultaneously. The sheer size of it all, plus presence of the loyal Guard units and similar personnel ensured that.

Sending more than a single assassin would seem like a good idea, but I suppose that getting them through security would be a problem. And sending a backup force once things had come out into the open might not have been possible either. At least not if you wanted them to survive...

We would need decent maps of the Imperial Palace complex, details of the security arrangements, and a whole bunch of stuff to be able to adequately analyse Dulinor's plan. Even then we would need to remember that Dulinor himself wouldn't have had access to all this information, and would be making the best plan possible with the information he had.
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  #133  
Old March 29th, 2005, 12:38 AM
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Varian did die, but by his brother's hand. Not the sort of thing that a would-be usurper should be counting on. ["OK, Lucan will kill Varian, and with any luck strangle himself in his next s&m session. Margaret will see the credit coins we've placed on the slidewalk, bend over to pick them up, and then get stuck in the superglue coating until the sanitation robot comes along and sends her to the landfill..."]

GDW obviously had a story they wanted to tell, and they used crowbars to make the 3I background fit. I loved GDW's stuff - I've got shelves full of it - but some parts of it work better than others.

I agree with the point about the fleets - moving a fleet or even a squadron too far would set off a lot of alarms and get things rolling. But you wouldn't need to move fleets.

If Dulinor didn't have enough people on the inside to issue a few more movement orders so he'd have at least a couple clandestine ships in system with troops loyal to him [as big as the Imperial Navy must have been, you'd think a ship or two could drift through the cracks with the right guy on the inside] or send a hit *team* to shoot those pesky relatives instead of just one guy, you would have hoped that he would postpone until he had a better chance at his plan working.

It's all a handwave - Dulinor was obviously never meant to be completely successful because either [or both of]:
A. if he were, that would just put the 3I 'under new management' and not be the 'big shakeup' that the company wanted the MT system to be, or
B. GDW was demonstrating in a subtle way that Dulinor just wasn't cut out to be Emperor if he cut and run at the first sign that his plan was not going to be completely successful. [Which is consistent with his actions with the Coronation Fleet, when his nerve broke a couple of jumps from Capital and he ran back home.]

Some people just aren't cut from the right cloth to be the big cheese.
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  #134  
Old March 29th, 2005, 12:38 AM
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Varian did die, but by his brother's hand. Not the sort of thing that a would-be usurper should be counting on. ["OK, Lucan will kill Varian, and with any luck strangle himself in his next s&m session. Margaret will see the credit coins we've placed on the slidewalk, bend over to pick them up, and then get stuck in the superglue coating until the sanitation robot comes along and sends her to the landfill..."]

GDW obviously had a story they wanted to tell, and they used crowbars to make the 3I background fit. I loved GDW's stuff - I've got shelves full of it - but some parts of it work better than others.

I agree with the point about the fleets - moving a fleet or even a squadron too far would set off a lot of alarms and get things rolling. But you wouldn't need to move fleets.

If Dulinor didn't have enough people on the inside to issue a few more movement orders so he'd have at least a couple clandestine ships in system with troops loyal to him [as big as the Imperial Navy must have been, you'd think a ship or two could drift through the cracks with the right guy on the inside] or send a hit *team* to shoot those pesky relatives instead of just one guy, you would have hoped that he would postpone until he had a better chance at his plan working.

It's all a handwave - Dulinor was obviously never meant to be completely successful because either [or both of]:
A. if he were, that would just put the 3I 'under new management' and not be the 'big shakeup' that the company wanted the MT system to be, or
B. GDW was demonstrating in a subtle way that Dulinor just wasn't cut out to be Emperor if he cut and run at the first sign that his plan was not going to be completely successful. [Which is consistent with his actions with the Coronation Fleet, when his nerve broke a couple of jumps from Capital and he ran back home.]

Some people just aren't cut from the right cloth to be the big cheese.
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  #135  
Old March 29th, 2005, 12:38 AM
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Varian did die, but by his brother's hand. Not the sort of thing that a would-be usurper should be counting on. ["OK, Lucan will kill Varian, and with any luck strangle himself in his next s&m session. Margaret will see the credit coins we've placed on the slidewalk, bend over to pick them up, and then get stuck in the superglue coating until the sanitation robot comes along and sends her to the landfill..."]

GDW obviously had a story they wanted to tell, and they used crowbars to make the 3I background fit. I loved GDW's stuff - I've got shelves full of it - but some parts of it work better than others.

I agree with the point about the fleets - moving a fleet or even a squadron too far would set off a lot of alarms and get things rolling. But you wouldn't need to move fleets.

If Dulinor didn't have enough people on the inside to issue a few more movement orders so he'd have at least a couple clandestine ships in system with troops loyal to him [as big as the Imperial Navy must have been, you'd think a ship or two could drift through the cracks with the right guy on the inside] or send a hit *team* to shoot those pesky relatives instead of just one guy, you would have hoped that he would postpone until he had a better chance at his plan working.

It's all a handwave - Dulinor was obviously never meant to be completely successful because either [or both of]:
A. if he were, that would just put the 3I 'under new management' and not be the 'big shakeup' that the company wanted the MT system to be, or
B. GDW was demonstrating in a subtle way that Dulinor just wasn't cut out to be Emperor if he cut and run at the first sign that his plan was not going to be completely successful. [Which is consistent with his actions with the Coronation Fleet, when his nerve broke a couple of jumps from Capital and he ran back home.]

Some people just aren't cut from the right cloth to be the big cheese.
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  #136  
Old March 29th, 2005, 01:47 AM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Crocker:
Varian did die, but by his brother's hand. Not the sort of thing that a would-be usurper should be counting on.
...
If Dulinor didn't have enough people on the inside to issue a few more movement orders so he'd have at least a couple clandestine ships in system with troops loyal to him [as big as the Imperial Navy must have been, you'd think a ship or two could drift through the cracks with the right guy on the inside] or send a hit *team* to shoot those pesky relatives instead of just one guy, you would have hoped that he would postpone until he had a better chance at his plan working.
Ignoring that it was all handwaved anyway...

Dulinor would have been operating under significant constraints in his planning.

Of course sending a team would have been a preferable, but presumably it wasn't genuinely wasn't feasible.

Similarly, it's highly unlikely that the Capital system isn't full of ships and troops. Any force that Dulinor could have brought in, short of a major battle fleet, would have been horribly outgunned and outnumbered. Frankly, he did well getting out alive, IMHO. Presumably sheer confusion was responsible.

If he had stayed around long enough for that confusion to subside, he might well have been trapped, and I doubt that his claim to the throne would have helped him.

So he needed more force on his side than he had, and it didn't seem likely that he was going to be able to get it there without tipping off Strephon.

He could either not bother, or go ahead regardless, trying to decapitate his opposition and then seizing the throne with his fleets. He actually succeeded in the decapitation - his opponents fragmented into lots and lots of rival factions. But that was the limit of his success.
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  #137  
Old March 29th, 2005, 01:47 AM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Crocker:
Varian did die, but by his brother's hand. Not the sort of thing that a would-be usurper should be counting on.
...
If Dulinor didn't have enough people on the inside to issue a few more movement orders so he'd have at least a couple clandestine ships in system with troops loyal to him [as big as the Imperial Navy must have been, you'd think a ship or two could drift through the cracks with the right guy on the inside] or send a hit *team* to shoot those pesky relatives instead of just one guy, you would have hoped that he would postpone until he had a better chance at his plan working.
Ignoring that it was all handwaved anyway...

Dulinor would have been operating under significant constraints in his planning.

Of course sending a team would have been a preferable, but presumably it wasn't genuinely wasn't feasible.

Similarly, it's highly unlikely that the Capital system isn't full of ships and troops. Any force that Dulinor could have brought in, short of a major battle fleet, would have been horribly outgunned and outnumbered. Frankly, he did well getting out alive, IMHO. Presumably sheer confusion was responsible.

If he had stayed around long enough for that confusion to subside, he might well have been trapped, and I doubt that his claim to the throne would have helped him.

So he needed more force on his side than he had, and it didn't seem likely that he was going to be able to get it there without tipping off Strephon.

He could either not bother, or go ahead regardless, trying to decapitate his opposition and then seizing the throne with his fleets. He actually succeeded in the decapitation - his opponents fragmented into lots and lots of rival factions. But that was the limit of his success.
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  #138  
Old March 29th, 2005, 01:47 AM
alanb alanb is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Crocker:
Varian did die, but by his brother's hand. Not the sort of thing that a would-be usurper should be counting on.
...
If Dulinor didn't have enough people on the inside to issue a few more movement orders so he'd have at least a couple clandestine ships in system with troops loyal to him [as big as the Imperial Navy must have been, you'd think a ship or two could drift through the cracks with the right guy on the inside] or send a hit *team* to shoot those pesky relatives instead of just one guy, you would have hoped that he would postpone until he had a better chance at his plan working.
Ignoring that it was all handwaved anyway...

Dulinor would have been operating under significant constraints in his planning.

Of course sending a team would have been a preferable, but presumably it wasn't genuinely wasn't feasible.

Similarly, it's highly unlikely that the Capital system isn't full of ships and troops. Any force that Dulinor could have brought in, short of a major battle fleet, would have been horribly outgunned and outnumbered. Frankly, he did well getting out alive, IMHO. Presumably sheer confusion was responsible.

If he had stayed around long enough for that confusion to subside, he might well have been trapped, and I doubt that his claim to the throne would have helped him.

So he needed more force on his side than he had, and it didn't seem likely that he was going to be able to get it there without tipping off Strephon.

He could either not bother, or go ahead regardless, trying to decapitate his opposition and then seizing the throne with his fleets. He actually succeeded in the decapitation - his opponents fragmented into lots and lots of rival factions. But that was the limit of his success.
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  #139  
Old March 29th, 2005, 10:40 AM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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I'm afraid, Alan, that you are too modern in your thinking. If Dulinor had offed the others, and made claim, he has a *legitemate* legal right to the throne (thank you very much, world's stupidest policy on leader removal). I don't think the fleets would have turned against him, because many of the nobles would have recognized his legal rights and he could justly have called on them to bring the local Imperial forces to heel.

Further, an interesting twist on the story could be this, and we don't know: How many of the nobles on Capital were Dulinor sympathizers? Or just hated Strephon? Historically, many Kings were disliked by their closest rivals for power and those sometimes geographically closest to them (sometimes this was a Machiavellian decision to keep them under the leader's thumb). Having said that, if there were enough people who were sympathizers or just wanted *any* change in management, and if he had managed the 'clean broom' move, even Strephon loyalists would have had no one to be loyal to. At that point, Dulinor looks like the only viable option.

Of course, this won't preclude a few IG die hards taking a shot at the assassin. But that's why Dulinor has his IG. In addition to smuggling in dud weapons for the other gaurd, his gaurd should have brought in some nukes or some other mechanism to inflict significant damage to the local non-Ilelish IG units. They're his most likely threat vector. Smash them, and you're localized threat is gone. By the time an external response can be mounted, you're done and the deal is fait accomplit.

Keep in mind about Capital: Ships are coming and going. But ask yourself this - How much of US military force is present in Washington? Lots of its administration, and some significant force, but relative to the overall force, very little and very little of it the heavy stuff. Similarly, Ottawa, London, Bonn, etc. I think you'll find that in many cases, the core system might well have a lot of police, a lot of military administration, but actual front line combat units might be few and far between. So you shatter the nearby threats, a real response might be hard to muster. Sure, they can call for help... at the speed of jump...

You don't keep good combat units sitting on their hands a Capital. They don't get much combat experience within a few parsecs of your administrative center (or at least not pre-Rebellion!). So you'll tend to have 'security' but the 3I has been so stagnant for several hundred years that it wouldn't surprise me if even that was lax.
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  #140  
Old March 29th, 2005, 10:40 AM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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I'm afraid, Alan, that you are too modern in your thinking. If Dulinor had offed the others, and made claim, he has a *legitemate* legal right to the throne (thank you very much, world's stupidest policy on leader removal). I don't think the fleets would have turned against him, because many of the nobles would have recognized his legal rights and he could justly have called on them to bring the local Imperial forces to heel.

Further, an interesting twist on the story could be this, and we don't know: How many of the nobles on Capital were Dulinor sympathizers? Or just hated Strephon? Historically, many Kings were disliked by their closest rivals for power and those sometimes geographically closest to them (sometimes this was a Machiavellian decision to keep them under the leader's thumb). Having said that, if there were enough people who were sympathizers or just wanted *any* change in management, and if he had managed the 'clean broom' move, even Strephon loyalists would have had no one to be loyal to. At that point, Dulinor looks like the only viable option.

Of course, this won't preclude a few IG die hards taking a shot at the assassin. But that's why Dulinor has his IG. In addition to smuggling in dud weapons for the other gaurd, his gaurd should have brought in some nukes or some other mechanism to inflict significant damage to the local non-Ilelish IG units. They're his most likely threat vector. Smash them, and you're localized threat is gone. By the time an external response can be mounted, you're done and the deal is fait accomplit.

Keep in mind about Capital: Ships are coming and going. But ask yourself this - How much of US military force is present in Washington? Lots of its administration, and some significant force, but relative to the overall force, very little and very little of it the heavy stuff. Similarly, Ottawa, London, Bonn, etc. I think you'll find that in many cases, the core system might well have a lot of police, a lot of military administration, but actual front line combat units might be few and far between. So you shatter the nearby threats, a real response might be hard to muster. Sure, they can call for help... at the speed of jump...

You don't keep good combat units sitting on their hands a Capital. They don't get much combat experience within a few parsecs of your administrative center (or at least not pre-Rebellion!). So you'll tend to have 'security' but the 3I has been so stagnant for several hundred years that it wouldn't surprise me if even that was lax.
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