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  #21  
Old January 31st, 2019, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Unless MWM has a retcon I am unaware of Norris was the first ever archduke of Deneb. When Arrival Vengeance made it to the real Strephon he found it amusing that Norris had promoted himself and then ratified it... oops, just read whulorigan's post, and he makes the same point

The chief difference between classical royalty and Imperial nobility is that royalty relied on divine authority whereas Imperial nobility is purely temporal. The Imperial Emperor doesn't seek divine recognition of his/her status, and the various nobles entitled by the Emperor similarly rely on Imperial authority rather than divine blessing.

Referring to the Imperial family as royalty isn't strictly speaking correct, but it certainly fits since they are the highest ranking noble family.
ISTR that he was the defacto "archduke" due to the fact that the Marches, in spite of being sandwiched between the Zhos, Vargr space and Swordys, was in essence one of the most stable regions of space during the rebellion. But no, I don't recall an official declaration of his ascension to being an archduke, he was just the one guy the Marches (and the larger Deneb area) could recognize. The Marches could rally about him, but the larger domain probably just nodded toward him because he had hard "rubber hits the road" military and administrative experience.

As for Margaret, to me she kind of came out of left field, and I never really understood the writeup for her history. When MT was published I was deep in finishing off my degree and going full boar in a career, so even though I was buying and perusing Traveller, a lot of what I read kind of got lost in my wet-ware's file system. Ergo when I read the Rebellion sourcebook in spite of the setting established by all of the books, I just wasn't able to wrap my head around where she came from in a larger sense.

The Rebellion sourcebook felt like a post doctorate analysis for a game aimed at pre-teens and post college grads. Even though it was easy to read, I didn't get how the rebellion really stirred, and why if there were nobles, there wasn't more order. Hence the reason I was curious about archdukes (official or self declared) were slugging it out. But I guess it falls back on Lucan or Dulinor as the two usual suspects.
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  #22  
Old February 1st, 2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
ISTR that [Norris] was the defacto "archduke" due to the fact that the Marches, in spite of being sandwiched between the Zhos, Vargr space and Swordys, was in essence one of the most stable regions of space during the rebellion. But no, I don't recall an official declaration of his ascension to being an archduke, he was just the one guy the Marches (and the larger Deneb area) could recognize. The Marches could rally about him, but the larger domain probably just nodded toward him because he had hard "rubber hits the road" military and administrative experience.
Basically, the back-story is that there had been long standing rivalry between Duchess Delphine of Mora and Duke Norris of Regina over the position of defacto Sector Duke of the Spinward Marches, which culminated during the 5th Frontier War in Norris's relief-from-command (via possession of an Imperial Warrant) for incompetence of Sector Admiral Santanocheev, one of Delphine's relatives.

When the assassination of Strephon occurred in 1116, Norris had received advanced notice of the event through the J-6 diplomatic courier network, and acting quickly, he forged an elevation to Archducal status for himself on some "blank" Imperial stationery, backdated to 1114 to account for bureaucracy and communication time-lag, and took control of the Marches as the new "Archduke" of the entire Domain of Deneb.

Later, when the Arrival Vengeance mission from Norris arrived in "Strephon's Imperium" at Usdikki in Gushemege, a somewhat bemused Strephon responded to "Archduke" Norris's embassy by commending him for his actions in securing the Domain of Deneb Sectors during the Rebellion crisis and giving a private gift to be taken back to Norris, which included an official patent as Archduke of Deneb.

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As for Margaret, to me she kind of came out of left field, and I never really understood the writeup for her history. When MT was published I was deep in finishing off my degree and going full boar in a career, so even though I was buying and perusing Traveller, a lot of what I read kind of got lost in my wet-ware's file system. Ergo when I read the Rebellion sourcebook … in spite of the setting established by all of the books, I just wasn't able to wrap my head around where she came from in a larger sense.
Duchess Margaret was the "1st cousin-once-removed" of Strephon (they shared Emperor Gavin from the time of the Solomani Rim War as an ancestor), and her family was thus an extended branch (a "cadet line") of the Imperial Family. Her branch of the family had been elevated to the Dukedom of Anaxias in Delphi Sector, and she was also at the time of the Rebellion the Sector Duchess for Delphi. She was married to Count Blaine Trulla Tukera, of the Tukera family of Tukera Lines. After Lucan, she was the next closest surviving heir to the Imperial Throne, and considered to be the preferable choice to lead the Imperium over Lucan by many of the more moderate members of the Imperial Moot.

See: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Emperor...ty_Family_Tree

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The Rebellion sourcebook felt like a post doctorate analysis for a game aimed at pre-teens and post college grads. Even though it was easy to read, I didn't get how the rebellion really stirred, and why if there were nobles, there wasn't more order. Hence the reason I was curious about archdukes (official or self declared) were slugging it out. But I guess it falls back on Lucan or Dulinor as the two usual suspects.
That's because the people at DGP who created the campaign background pretty much created it out of whole cloth toward the end of the Classic Traveller run as the backdrop for MegaTraveller. With the exception of one or two of the final CT-era Traveller Digest publications, there was no hint of the events that would become the Rebellion prior to their involvement in creating a setting with a number of factions explicitly set up to have no easy resolution - every side had its hang-ups and problems deliberately "baked-in" from the beginning, so that there was no easy resolution.
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Lord Richard Elruinn Ilendrick Rhovanion of Rhylanor
Count RhovanionSPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-FSir Richard, Knight (Kt)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F
MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
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Baroness of NorthammonDENE 0921 Northammon B764667-AMCGx2 - For Conspicuous Gallantry @ The Assaults on Dinomn & Denotam

Link: Traveller5 Noble Patents Registry

Last edited by whulorigan; February 1st, 2019 at 09:21 AM..
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  #23  
Old February 1st, 2019, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
Basically, the back-story is that there had been long standing rivalry between Duchess Delphine of Mora and Duke Norris of Regina over the position of defacto Sector Duke of the Spinward Marches, which culminated during the 5th Frontier War in Norris's relief-from-command (via possession of an Imperial Warrant) for incompetence of Sector Admiral Santanocheev, one of Delphine's relatives.

When the assassination of Strephon occurred in 1116, Norris had received advanced notice of the event through the J-6 diplomatic courier network, and acting quickly, he forged an elevation to Archducal status for himself on some "blank" Imperial stationery, backdated to 1114 to account for bureaucracy and communication time-lag, and took control of the Marches as the new "Archduke" of the entire Domain of Deneb.

Later, when the Arrival Vengeance mission from Norris arrived in "Strephon's Imperium" at Usdikki in Gushemege, a somewhat bemused Strephon responded to "Archduke" Norris's embassy by commending him for his actions in securing the Domain of Deneb Sectors during the Rebellion crisis and giving a private gift to be taken back to Norris, which included an official patent as Archduke of Deneb.



Duchess Margaret was the "1st cousin-once-removed" of Strephon (they shared Emperor Gavin from the time of the Solomani Rim War as an ancestor), and her family was thus an extended branch of the Imperial Family. Her branch of the family had been elevated to the Dukedom of Anaxias in Delphi Sector, and she was also at the time of the Rebellion the Sector Duchess for Delphi. She was married to Count Blaine Trulla Tukera, of the Tukera family of Tukera Lines. After Lucan, she was the next closest surviving heir to the Imperial Throne, and considered to be the preferable choice to lead the Imperium over Lucan by many of the more moderate members of the Imperial Moot.



That's because the people at DGP who created the campaign background pretty much created it out of whole cloth toward the end of the Classic Traveller run as the backdrop for MegaTraveller. With the exception of one or two of the final CT-era Traveller Digest publications, there was no hint of the events that would become the Rebellion prior to their involvement in creating a setting with a number of factions set up to have no easy resolution - every side had its hang-ups and problems deliberately "baked-in" from the beginning, so that there was no easy resolution.
I have the campaign book for Norris, Santanochev and the frontier war (name escape me...Spinward Marches Campaign?), and I've read it cover to cover, but I don't recall Norris ever self-proclaiming himself to be the archduke. Was that written up in a T4 sourcebook or something? I mean, it's been over 20 years since I read the thing, so forgive my memory here.

I recall Margaret having some familial roots, but unlike Norris she never really made a move to consolidate her forces or mobilize her fleets much--or that I recall. So, again, she seemed like this background character that got notoriety like the rest of the archdukes on Aramis's list, and done so for the sake of forwarding the Rebellion plot.

And I guess that's kind of how I see nobility and the MT era; a formulated hodgepodge for the sake of creating a more dynamic Imperium. But to me, and for my group, I simply ran CT like adventures with little or some MT fuzz. I never really got a sense that political and military chaos was taking over, because you never got any real kind of TNA or TAS updates on what uprisings were happening where, why, who was involved, and the scale of the battles on land, sea, air, or space.

But, again, I guess the whole theory is that no one could step forward, ergo an implied rebellion, but it's like whether I was working a lot and didn't have time for MT, from what I recall, there seemed little evidence of an Empire in upheaval other than the sourcebook said it was happening.

But now I'm rambling on my soap box. Food and sleep are needed.
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  #24  
Old February 1st, 2019, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
I have the campaign book for Norris, Santanochev and the frontier war (name escape me...Spinward Marches Campaign?), and I've read it cover to cover, but I don't recall Norris ever self-proclaiming himself to be the archduke. Was that written up in a T4 sourcebook or something? I mean, it's been over 20 years since I read the thing, so forgive my memory here.
  • Spinward Marches Campaign was about the 5th Frontier War (1107-1110) and published during the Classic Traveller era.
  • Norris making himself Archduke was in the MegaTraveller material, which initially covered the period 1116-1120.

Quote:
. . . And I guess that's kind of how I see nobility and the MT era; a formulated hodgepodge for the sake of creating a more dynamic Imperium. But to me, and for my group, I simply ran CT like adventures with little or some MT fuzz. I never really got a sense that political and military chaos was taking over, because you never got any real kind of [TNS] or TAS updates on what uprisings were happening where, why, who was involved, and the scale of the battles on land, sea, air, or space.

But, again, I guess the whole theory is that no one could step forward, ergo an implied rebellion, but it's like whether I was working a lot and didn't have time for MT, from what I recall, there seemed little evidence of an Empire in upheaval other than the sourcebook said it was happening.
Your observation is valid. In fact, it is one of the reasons why GURPS Traveller set their Campaign Setting in an alternate timeline where the Rebellion never happened - because many people felt the same way - they liked the reasonably stable Imperium that they had grown up with (which had no hint of an impending unresolvable political situation) as a background or sandbox setting for their own campaigns.

(Side Note: In GURPS Traveller, Norris is legitimately promoted to Archduke of Deneb in 1116 by Emperor Strephon, the news reaching the Spinward Marches by 1117).
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Count RhovanionSPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-FSir Richard, Knight (Kt)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F
MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
Baronet of Jae TellonaSPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8Knight of Deneb (KD)SPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8
Baron of the Third ImperiumSPIN 3220 Powaza C787566-5Knight of the Third Imperium (KTI)SPIN 3235 Trin A894A96-F
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Baroness of NorthammonDENE 0921 Northammon B764667-AMCGx2 - For Conspicuous Gallantry @ The Assaults on Dinomn & Denotam

Link: Traveller5 Noble Patents Registry

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  #25  
Old February 1st, 2019, 02:30 PM
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I think the seeds of the rebellion were there from the very first mention of the Imperium no longer having the strength it once had and the very dubious nature of politics and the nobility within the Spinward Marches as detailed in Kinunir...
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Old February 1st, 2019, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
  • Spinward Marches Campaign was about the 5th Frontier War (1107-1110) and published during the Classic Traveller era.
  • Norris making himself Archduke was in the MegaTraveller material, which initially covered the period 1116-1120.



Your observation is valid. In fact, it is one of the reasons why GURPS Traveller set their Campaign Setting in an alternate timeline where the Rebellion never happened - because many people felt the same way - they liked the reasonably stable Imperium that they had grown up with (which had no hint of an impending unresolvable political situation) as a background or sandbox setting for their own campaigns.

(Side Note: In GURPS Traveller, Norris is legitimately promoted to Archduke of Deneb in 1116 by Emperor Strephon, the news reaching the Spinward Marches by 1117).
Well, I think in spite of the quality of the DGP material, ultimately a lack of development of the Rebellion is what did in MT--at least in hindsight.

I don't want to get too off topic, but with a combination of school and career I dropped Traveller for a long time. I understood there was supposed to be massive political upheavals, but it's like "who's invading who?" time, and apparently no one was. The setup for the background sounded intriguing, and despite the Rebellion sourcebook cover art, most of what was inside was backstory and posturing by high ranking NPCs.

Timerover's observation on another thread (or perhaps my blog, I can't recall just now) is that scifi RPGs are about solving problems, where fantasy RPGs are about fantasy gratification. It almost strikes me that Traveller was taking a new avenue at the time, and there was a desire to inject excitement and perhaps a kind of fantasy gratification psychology with the new toys (vehicle guide as an example) and streamlined art.

But with all that, to me, the nobility thing was a layer of NPC detail that flew over my head because I didn't understand nobility all that well (we had nobles in our games, but they didn't carry much clout), and the detailing of fleet movements and tensions wasn't explored beyond Rebellion--or so I recall. So, noble ranks, in retrospect, I think could have been better spelled out as a kind of playguide for players.

Thanks for the replies. I guess in the end it never seemed like nobility had much to do with players unless your rolled one up, and even then the political weight they were supposed to carry in the game was never really made clear. If you rolled up a marquis or duke did people recognize that PC? How many shades away were they from local nobility and royals? Whatever. I got a better handle on ranks now as they pertain to Traveller.

I'll have to have a look at my T5 CD and see what it says.
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Old February 1st, 2019, 09:21 PM
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Well, I think in spite of the quality of the DGP material, ultimately a lack of development of the Rebellion is what did in MT--at least in hindsight.
My personal opinion is that one of the primary problems was making the Rebellion the basis for MegaTraveller, instead of simply making MT an updated Traveller ruleset and running the "Rebellion" in TNS news articles in JTAS/Challenge (with a few supplementary sourcebooks) like they did for Classic Traveller and the 5th Frontier War. By tying the Rebellion to the ruleset itself, they forced themselves into a corner in which they had to continue publishing material for an ever-ongoing Rebellion without the possibility of a resolution, rather than allowing the Rebellion to run its course and move on to a new status quo.

Classic Traveller was just a ruleset; it was never billed as Traveller: The Fifth Frontier War. If it had been, it might have had similar problems as a war that never ends.

Quote:
I'll have to have a look at my T5 CD and see what it says.
Be advised that T5 is mostly rule mechanics, and what it does say about Nobles (along with Imperiallines #7) is slightly different than the way in which certain specifics about Nobles were detailed in previous editions. Marc has a slightly different "take" on them as compared to their portrayal as published by the combined GDW staff back in the day.
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Count RhovanionSPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-FSir Richard, Knight (Kt)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F
MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
Baronet of Jae TellonaSPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8Knight of Deneb (KD)SPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8
Baron of the Third ImperiumSPIN 3220 Powaza C787566-5Knight of the Third Imperium (KTI)SPIN 3235 Trin A894A96-F
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Baron of ImlaarDENE 2212 Imlaar D677551-6SEH - For Extreme Heroism @ The Battle of Ruby
Baroness of NorthammonDENE 0921 Northammon B764667-AMCGx2 - For Conspicuous Gallantry @ The Assaults on Dinomn & Denotam

Link: Traveller5 Noble Patents Registry
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Old February 14th, 2019, 06:04 PM
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It's probably a mistake to too closely tie the hierarchy of a fictional Imperium to that of the rather old European one, especially since in Traveller it's adjusted to suit the plot as it develops.

The Royal Family, or in this case, the Imperial Family, would be the descendants of a ruling Emperor or Empress to usually a specific generation, and children not in the direct line of succession, would be regarded as diplomatic pawns to be sold off in marriage to strengthen or create alliances between powerful Noble Houses within the Imperium, or client kingdoms; in theory, that could have included the Zhodani Consulate and Solomani Confederation, but neither would have by their nature a ruling house, or be persuaded to amend their policies reagrding the Imperium.

Again, in the English model, non successor sons are created Dukes to establish them as cadet houses, since Dukes outrank mere Princes, with the exception of that of Wales, who actually is the titular head of an actual principality; something similar to the Continental model. It's a question of precedence.

For the Imperium, assuming an Archduke is actually meant to at least govern his domain, it may be more of a super satrapy, considering the fact that a subsector Duke probably has more influence in actually running his territory, and a sector Duke is supposedly first amongst equals.

I don't know how the Imperium deals with a Regency, where either the Crown successor, a Shogun, or just a board of supervisors run the state until the Crown successor comes of majority, or a handicapped Emperor kicks the bucket.

A mentally competent Emperor who's off to the frontier to temporarily supervise operations only needs to leave behind a competent and trusted Chancellor, or let his heir experience the reins of power.
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