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Old November 27th, 2014, 02:21 PM
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Default Book 2 Design and Construction plus Book 3 TL table

Hello everyone,

I've sent a possible Supplement 7 revised design to Donald McKinney and I'm checking after the fact that the revision under Book 2 1981 is not broken.

Background:
Book 2 1977 pp. 11,13 Engineering Section Each starship is fitted with a:

1. Power plant to provide
a. internal power
b. power to the maneuver drive
c. The installed power plant must be of a letter type equal to the drive letter of the maneuver drive (the power plant letter may be higher than the maneuver drive letter (p.13).

2. maneuver drive (for interplanetary travel).

3. jump drive (for interstellar jumps).

In Book 3 1977 pp. 10 and 11 the technology levels for computers TL 5 through 13, non-starships TL 7, starships TL 9, and Jump drive letters* were available from TL 9 through 15 . (*I guessed back when that the drives referenced where those that allowed interstellar jumps and drives A - G where available at TL 9.)

Book 2 1981 was published which provides the following information in the Engineering Section p. 13

1. A non-starship must have a maneuver drive and a power plant.

2. A starship must have a jump drive and a power plant; a maneuver drive may also be installed, but is not required.

3. In all cases, the power plant letter must be equal or exceed either the maneuver drive or the jump drive letter.

In Book 3 pp. 14 and 15 the technology levels for computers TL 5 through 13, non-starships TL 7, starships TL 9, and jump drives by drive letters* were available from TL 9 through 15 . (*My guess is that the referenced drive letters are for the jump drives.)

In Supplement 7 the express boat appears to have been using Book 2 1977 with wiggle room which under Book 2 1981 can not be done.

Following Book 2 1981 rules an express boat must have a jump drive and a power plant with type letters that are equal to each other or the power plant could have a higher type letter.

Per Supplement 7 an 100-ton express boat is capable of a four parsec jump. On Book 2 1981 Drive potential table p.22 to achieve four parsecs the choices are between jump drive letters B and C. Checking in Book 3 1981 under the Space Technological Levels column p. 15 Jump Drive Letter types A - D are available.

The choice made in Supplement 7 appears to be Jump Drive type B with a range rating of 4. Per the rules the power plant letter must be equal to or higher that the jump drive letter which means the express boats power plant drive letter is at least B and could be C.

Here is where I may be bending if not breaking the Book 2 1981 rules between the jump drive and power plant.

The power plant type B has a rating of 1.

Have I bent and/or broken the Book 2 1981 rules?

Note that if a maneuver drive was installed both the power plants letter type and rating would match the maneuver drive's letter type and rating.
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Old November 27th, 2014, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
...

The power plant type B has a rating of 1.

...
In what rating system?
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Old November 27th, 2014, 10:44 PM
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The X-Boat cannot be built legally under 2E unless you reduce the fuel.

Don, Robject, and I went through all this 4 years ago. Accept that it's an artifact, or accept the errata, and move on, man.

See: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...ad.php?t=22130

And, at one point, Don mentioned not wanting to invent the model/3bis... but Marc beat him to doing so... models 1bis to 7bis are in HG 1E, page 29, as a formulaic addition.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 12:00 AM
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Evening Carlobrand,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlobrand View Post
In what rating system?
The jump drive type B's rating is 4 parsecs which is used to determine the required fuel.

The power plant type B rating is 1 unidentified something or other in Book 2 1981, in Book 2 1977 this would be the internal power rating and is used to determine the power plant's required fuel to operate for four weeks.

If the express boat had a maneuver drive type B with a rating of 2G the power plant rating would be 2 to power the maneuver drive and the ship's internal power output.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
...
The jump drive type B's rating is 4 parsecs which is used to determine the required fuel.

The power plant type B rating is 1 unidentified something or other in Book 2 1981, in Book 2 1977 this would be the internal power rating and is used to determine the power plant's required fuel to operate for four weeks.
...
Oh, I remember now. Okay, look at the Drive Potential Table. It tells you that in a 100 dT ship, the Power Plant B is a 4 unidentified something or other, not a 1.

This is part of what triggers all the handwringing about the x-boat, and why we say it can't be built under the Book-2 rules: a Power Plant B, with it's rating of 4, requires 40 dTons of power plant fuel (10 Pn). On top of the 40 dTons of jump fuel and the 20 dTon bridge, you no longer have room for the drives or anything else.

So far, the best effort in that direction is the one in the errata: a 105 dT X-boat with a 54 dTon fuel supply, enough for a jump and 10 days operation. With the 20 dTon bridge, 22 dTons in drives, and 4 dTon Model/4 computer, that comes to 100 dTons. So, either your hapless pilot sleeps on the bridge in his seat and you replace the second bridge seat with a chem-toilet or some similar low-volume waste disposal system, and put a few jugs of water and some rations in with him (which makes x-boat piloting a pretty rough and unpopular job), or you go over target so he can have someplace to sleep, eat, shower and so forth. (I'm not sure why they're getting 105 out of that; I'm getting 104.)

Or you could cut the power plant fuel to 12 dTons and put a half-stateroom in, but that's only fuel for 8.4 days. Cuts things pretty tight.

Me, if I were bending rules that far, I'd forgo the stateroom and make the pilot rough it on the bridge. If a recruit can't handle a year of that duty, then he's not Scouts material.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 01:49 AM
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Evening aramis,

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
The X-Boat cannot be built legally under 2E unless you reduce the fuel.

Don, Robject, and I went through all this 4 years ago. Accept that it's an artifact, or accept the errata, and move on, man.

See: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...ad.php?t=22130
Per the errata the express boat has 54 tons of fuel onboard which allows one jump, I am guessing the one jump is the maximum of 4 parsecs, and 10 days of operation.

I think that the total time the power plant has to operate is between 6.3 and 7.7 days in jump plus 10 days of operation in normal space waiting on the tender. The power plant at a minimum has to provided power for 16.3 to 17.7 days. The fuel load for a power plant allows operation for 28 days.

The Jump 4 Drive Type B requires 0.1 x 100 x 4 = 10 x 4 = 40 tons of fuel

54 - 40 = 14 tons of fuel for the power plant.

The formula for power plant fuel is 10 x Pn which allows the power plant to operate for 28 days.

14 ton = 10 x Pn = 14 tons / 10 = Pn = 1.4

The Power Plant Type B has a rating of 1.4 that requires 14 tons of fuel allowing four weeks or 28 days of operations.

Reducing the Power Plant Type B's rating from 1.4 to 1 requires a fuel load of 10 x 1 = 10 tons.

The ship's computer has to be able to run a Jump 4 program and the navigate program at the same time which requires a computer with a capacity of 5. A Model 3, no bis models past 2 or any fib models are in Book 2, would be a maximum capacity. If the generate program is also used a Model 3 is not going to handle the jump calculations. I'm going with a Model 4.

From CT Book 2 1981 2nd ed.

Hull: 100 tons
Jump 4 Drive Type B: 15 tons
Jump Fuel: .1 x 100 x 4 = 10 x 4 = 40 tons to make one 4 parsec jump.
Power Plant 1 Type B: 7 tons
Power Plant Fuel: 10 x 1 = 10 tons for 28 days of operation
Bridge: 20 tons
Computer Model/4: 4 tons
1x Stateroom: 4 tons

100 - 15 - 40 - 7 - 10 - 20 - 4 - 4 =
85 - 40 - 7 - 10 - 20 - 4 - 4 =
45 - 7 - 10 - 20 - 4 - 4 =
38 - 10 - 20 - 4 - 4 =
28 - 20 - 4 - 4 =
8 - 4 - 4 =
4 - 4 = 0

Hopefully, I followed the Book 2 1981 Second editions

Quote:
And, at one point, Don mentioned not wanting to invent the model/3bis... but Marc beat him to doing so... models 1bis to 7bis are in HG 1E, page 29, as a formulaic addition.
In either Book 2 1977 First edition or 1981 Second edition there are only two bis model computers available.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 03:18 AM
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Evening Carlobrand,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlobrand View Post
Oh, I remember now. Okay, look at the Drive Potential Table. It tells you that in a 100 dT ship, the Power Plant B is a 4 unidentified something or other, not a 1.

This is part of what triggers all the handwringing about the x-boat, and why we say it can't be built under the Book-2 rules: a Power Plant B, with it's rating of 4, requires 40 dTons of power plant fuel (10 Pn). On top of the 40 dTons of jump fuel and the 20 dTon bridge, you no longer have room for the drives or anything else.

So far, the best effort in that direction is the one in the errata: a 105 dT X-boat with a 54 dTon fuel supply, enough for a jump and 10 days operation. With the 20 dTon bridge, 22 dTons in drives, and 4 dTon Model/4 computer, that comes to 100 dTons. So, either your hapless pilot sleeps on the bridge in his seat and you replace the second bridge seat with a chem-toilet or some similar low-volume waste disposal system, and put a few jugs of water and some rations in with him (which makes x-boat piloting a pretty rough and unpopular job), or you go over target so he can have someplace to sleep, eat, shower and so forth. (I'm not sure why they're getting 105 out of that; I'm getting 104.)

Or you could cut the power plant fuel to 12 dTons and put a half-stateroom in, but that's only fuel for 8.4 days. Cuts things pretty tight.

Me, if I were bending rules that far, I'd forgo the stateroom and make the pilot rough it on the bridge. If a recruit can't handle a year of that duty, then he's not Scouts material.

My understanding is that the 4 unidentified something or other is the maximum potential that the drive letter can attain.

The express boat's Jump 4 Drive B, the maximum potential on the table, requires 0.1 x 100 x 4 = 10 x 4 = 40 ton good for one four parsec jump.

Instead of the express boat making a nice neat four parsec jump the ship does a Jump 3. The only Drive type capable of making a three parsec jump is the Type B and the fuel requirement for the drive type B would be .1 x 100 x 3 =10 x 3 = 30 tons of fuel and the jump drive takes up 15 tons of space.

Using the errata the express boat has 54 tons of fuel 40 tons is required by the jump drive leaving 14 tons for the power plant.

14 tons of power plant = 10 x the power plant number =

14 tons / 10 = the power plant number

1.4 = the power plant number which is not the Type B potential of 4.

My understanding is that the power plant fuel load is good for 28 days which is the smallest legal duration allowed by Book 2 1981 Second edition and HG 1980 Second edition.

Forty tons of the fifty-four tons is dedicated to the jump drive leaving 14 tons for the power plant.

14 tons = 10 x Pn =

14 tons / 10 = Pn =1.4

According to the fuel formula the Power Plant Type B has a plant number of 1.4.

If the Type B potential of 4 is used to calculate the power plant fuel load the express boat needs 10 x 4 = 40 tons.

Jump Drive 15 tons + 40 tons of fuel = 54 tons
Power Plant 7 tons + 40 tons of fuel = 47 tons
Bridge 20 tons
1x Stateroom 4 tons

54 + 47 + 20 + 4 =
101 + 20 + 4 =
121 + 4 =
125

No light bulbs, okay candles, have illuminated letting me know I may have caught on to the rules as you and the others have yet.

Anyone got a forty pound sledge hammer and time to show up at my door/
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Old November 28th, 2014, 03:31 AM
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Supplement 7 postdates the draft of HG 1E. Some HG draft materials made it in.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
...
Using the errata the express boat has 54 tons of fuel 40 tons is required by the jump drive leaving 14 tons for the power plant.

14 tons of power plant = 10 x the power plant number =

14 tons / 10 = the power plant number

1.4 = the power plant number which is not the Type B potential of 4.
...
???

Why are you calculating the power plant rating based on the amount of fuel aboard? That's like calculating your car's engine output based on the size of your gas tank.

Power plant rating must match the higher of jump drive rating or maneuver drive rating per Book 2. Ergo, if your jump drive rating is 4, you must have a power plant rating of at least 4.

The 40 dTons power plant fuel provides fuel for 4 weeks - 28 days. If you make the fuel tank smaller, you run out of fuel sooner. It does not affect power plant rating; power plant consumes fuel at the same rate whether it's being fed by a 1 dTon or a 40 - it just runs out quicker if the fuel tank is smaller. Only the jump or maneuver drive - which the power plant is presumably powering - have any influence on power plant rating.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 09:46 AM
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Morning aramis,

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Supplement 7 postdates the draft of HG 1E. Some HG draft materials made it in.
Yes, the system defense boat has magazines which was part of High Guard 1979 First Edition on page 32.

"Magazines: Any ship with missile racks installed in bays may allocate a magazine equal in tons to the points used in determining missile factor for a bay or turret. The total of such points (un-averaged) is then available as a planetary bombing factor. Planetary bombing is not available to ships without missile magazines."

I could have sworn that High Guard 1980 Second edition retained the part that planetary bombardment requires magazines, but I cannot seem to dug the material out.

Can anyone point me to the right source pleas,

Supplement 7 does say that the designs where created using both Book 2 (First edition) and as noted by the missile magazines, High Guard (First edition). Further the designs are rated to produce the Universal Ship Profile and supporting data from High Guard (First Edition)
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