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Old August 7th, 2014, 01:30 PM
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Default Book 2 and Book 5 Small Craft Gunners

Hello all,

Yes, I back with another of the rules that don't make any sense every time I look at the rules.

Book 2 Ship Crews page 16

Gunners: "Armed small craft require a gunner in addition to the pilot."

Book 2 Small Craft page 17

Fittings: "If the craft is armed, but carries no gunner, the pilot may fire the weapon at -1 skill level."

Per the Ship Crew gunner rule the fighter carrying either a single laser and up to 3 missile racks or sandcasters described on page 18 is not possible because .

However, under the Small Craft rules the fighter is possible since the pilot can fire the weapon at -1 skill level.

I'm leaning towards the rule from small craft section on page 17.

Which rule is valid the armed small craft one from the ship crew gunner or the armed craft described under small craft?

Book 5 HG2 Small Craft Gunners pages 34 -35.

Weapons page 34:
"A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present. All computations, however, may assume that the craft carries one turret. Weight, tech level, cost, and energy point restrictions must be observed. The pilot is assumed to be the gunner for one type of weapon on the craft. If additional types are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types), a gunner is required for each addition weapon. Exception: no additional gunner is required for sandcasters."

My opinion if the only options are fixed mounts or a turret is either the gunner that operates all the weapons installed or the pilot operates all the weapons in the mount.

If both a fixed mount and turret can be installed then the pilot probably operates the fixed mount and a gunner operates the turret.

Of course I'm probably still out to lunch in my opinion about gunners for Book 2 and Book 5.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
Book 2 Small Craft page 17

Fittings: "If the craft is armed, but carries no gunner, the pilot may fire the weapon at -1 skill level."
Side question: -1 skill level to what skill? Ship's boat (assuming that the positioning of the craft is what is needed to aim the weapon) or gunner (as you're firing a weapon)?

See that if the needed skill (used at -1) is gunner, then we have another problem with the crew, as most fighter pilots are assumed to be from the Flight branch (page 23), and Gunnery skill is not in its MOS table...
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Old August 7th, 2014, 06:00 PM
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BTW, Merchant could have pilot and gunner skill.

I just apply the -1 penalty to whatever gunnery level the pilot may have.

As often in rules, imperative forms such as "Must" or "require" is understood by me as "should for normal operation", as in this case. I would not find it fun if Luke skywalker could not operate a fighter (although R2D2 is there...) or if Chewbaka was not operating a turret.

have fun

Selandia
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Old August 7th, 2014, 06:22 PM
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Just use basic LBB1 generation, gunnery and ship's boat are available in the service skills table for the Navy.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 06:27 PM
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Hello McPerth, Selandia, and Mike Wightman,

Thank you for the replies

Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Side question: -1 skill level to what skill?
The skill that the -1 in the small craft rules of Book 2 is applied to the gunnery which is available to all naval characters generated using Book 1.

Quote:
Ship's boat (assuming that the positioning of the craft is what is needed to aim the weapon) or gunner (as you're firing a weapon)?
The web gremlins seem to have messed with this question so I'm not sure how to respond, can I get a little help please.

Quote:
See that if the needed skill (used at -1) is gunner, then we have another problem with the crew, as most fighter pilots are assumed to be from the Flight branch (page 23), and Gunnery skill is not in its MOS table...
Under Book 1 character rules a naval pilot having gunnery skills is a lot easier than one created using Book 5.

However, a Book 5 naval pilot can still get gunnery skill if the character gets special duty followed by cross-training, and then roll on the branch selection table gunnery. Another way is that the character was enlisted with gunnery and pilot skills that got a commission.

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Originally Posted by Selandia View Post
BTW, Merchant could have pilot and gunner skill.

I just apply the -1 penalty to whatever gunnery level the pilot may have.

As often in rules, imperative forms such as "Must" or "require" is understood by me as "should for normal operation", as in this case. I would not find it fun if Luke skywalker could not operate a fighter (although R2D2 is there...) or if Chewbaka was not operating a turret.

have fun

Selandia
I'm not very familiar with Merchant so thank you for the tidbit of information.

In Book 2 the Ship Crews gunner "requires" armed small craft to have a gunner, but the small craft crew appears to say that they are optional.

Book 5 allows the pilot to fire one weapon type, but requires a gunner, with the exception of a sandcaster, when a second type of weapon is installed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Just use basic LBB1 generation, gunnery and ship's boat are available in the service skills table for the Navy.
You could combine the two books character generation.

Thanks again and my apologies about this post I goofed three times before I finished replying to your posts and managed to post before I was ready.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
... Which rule is valid the armed small craft one from the ship crew gunner or the armed craft described under small craft?
Yes.

Both rules apply. A gunner is required, but if you don't have a gunner then the pilot can do double duty at a penalty. That's a variation on the double duty rule:

CT Book 2, Page 16, SHIP CREWS: "One person may fill two crew positions, providing he or she has the skill to otherwise perform the work. However, because of the added burden, each position is filled with skill minus one, and the individual draws salary equal to 75% of each position ..."

The rules similarly state that a pilot is required, that a navigator is required for ships over 200 dT, that an engineer is required for ships of 200dT and over, et cetera. However, in each case you can satisfy the requirement by having someone wear two hats. With 1000 second turns, the pilot has adequate time to operate the guns as well - just at a penalty to both his ship's boat and gunnery skills.


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Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
... Book 5 HG2 Small Craft Gunners pages 34 -35.

Weapons page 34:
"A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present. All computations, however, may assume that the craft carries one turret. Weight, tech level, cost, and energy point restrictions must be observed. The pilot is assumed to be the gunner for one type of weapon on the craft. If additional types are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types), a gunner is required for each addition weapon. Exception: no additional gunner is required for sandcasters."

My opinion if the only options are fixed mounts or a turret is either the gunner that operates all the weapons installed or the pilot operates all the weapons in the mount.

If both a fixed mount and turret can be installed then the pilot probably operates the fixed mount and a gunner operates the turret. ...
"A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present. ..."

A small craft may only have one hard point. It may therefore mount up to three weapons, no more. The player may choose to see them as a turret, or he may choose to see them as fixed mount weapons like the guns pointing out the nose of a modern fighter. The rule is telling you that it doesn't matter which way he chooses to see it, it's all treated the same as if it were one turret. With nothing but vacuum around it, a thousand seconds to a turn and only the one hardpoint to worry about, there's no real problem with a small craft pointing its nose at a target when it's ready to shoot, the way a spinal mount cruiser does, and then pivoting about to put its drives where it wants before the enemy can react to its attitude change.

Note that Book 2 and High Guard differ in that the pilot in Book 2 draws a penalty for firing a weapon but in High Guard he's permitted to control one weapon type without penalty.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 12:05 AM
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Evening Carlobrand,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlobrand View Post
Yes.

Both rules apply. A gunner is required, but if you don't have a gunner then the pilot can do double duty at a penalty. That's a variation on the double duty rule:

CT Book 2, Page 16, SHIP CREWS: "One person may fill two crew positions, providing he or she has the skill to otherwise perform the work. However, because of the added burden, each position is filled with skill minus one, and the individual draws salary equal to 75% of each position ..."

The rules similarly state that a pilot is required, that a navigator is required for ships over 200 dT, that an engineer is required for ships of 200dT and over, et cetera. However, in each case you can satisfy the requirement by having someone wear two hats. With 1000 second turns, the pilot has adequate time to operate the guns as well - just at a penalty to both his ship's boat and gunnery skills.
I am quoting the Ship Crews Gunner rule exactly as written on Book 2 page 16 concerning armed ships.

"One gunner (gunner skill 1 or better required) may be hired per turret on a ship. Armed small craft require a gunner in addition to the pilot."

Had the rule read "Armed small craft require a gunner.", I would agree with you that one person, the small craft pilot, could also fill the gunner position.

The rule however includes the wording "in addition to the pilot" which to me means that the pilot cannot fill the gunner position.

Both the Ship Crews and the Small Craft crew listing rule state that a pilot is required. Unfortunately, the small craft crew listing states.

"If the craft is armed, but carries no gunner, the pilot may fire the weapon at -1 skill level."

If the armed small craft, with the exception of a fighter, was on a mission that wasn't supposed to need a gunner or was launched during an emergency I can agree that the pilot may fire the weapon at -1 skill level.

Unfortunately, the fighter breaks the Ship Crews Gunner rule being the only armed small craft with crew of one.

Modifying the rule from "Armed small craft require a gunner in addition to the pilot." to Armed small craft, except a fighter, require a gunner in addition to the pilot." Or dropping "in addition to the pilot" would make more sense to me.

Book 5 Small Craft Crew

[QUOTE"A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present. ..."

A small craft may only have one hard point. It may therefore mount up to three weapons, no more. The player may choose to see them as a turret, or he may choose to see them as fixed mount weapons like the guns pointing out the nose of a modern fighter. The rule is telling you that it doesn't matter which way he chooses to see it, it's all treated the same as if it were one turret. With nothing but vacuum around it, a thousand seconds to a turn and only the one hardpoint to worry about, there's no real problem with a small craft pointing its nose at a target when it's ready to shoot, the way a spinal mount cruiser does, and then pivoting about to put its drives where it wants before the enemy can react to its attitude change.

Note that Book 2 and High Guard differ in that the pilot in Book 2 draws a penalty for firing a weapon but in High Guard he's permitted to control one weapon type without penalty.[/QUOTE]

Apparently I didn't express myself correctly or I don't understand the comment. Actually I betting it is a combination of both.

1. Book 5 Crew requirements do not state that a gunner is required in addition to a pilot on armed small craft that Book 2 does.

2. Book 5 allows up to three weapons to be installed which is the maximum number of weapons that can be installed into a single turret.

3. Book 5 adds the detail that small craft weapons are probably rigidly fixed in position rather than a turret, while Book 2 doesn't mention a turret just one ton of weaponry which is actually, in my opinion, the fire control for a turret.

4. Book 5 a pilot can operate one type of weapon without the penalty applied to gunnery skill that would apply in Book 2.

5. Book 5 a gunner is required for each additional weapon type installed.

The possible weapon types are missiles, sandcasters, lasers, energy weapons, or a particle accelerator.

6. Pilot and Gunner firing weapons

A. The pilot can act a the gunner when either a particle accelerator or energy weapon is installed.

B. The pilot acts as the gunner when all the weapons are the same type for example three lasers or two missile racks.

C. Under the Book 5 rules a pilot can fire one type of weapon and a gunner is required if a second weapon type is installed, with the exception of a sandcaster which doesn't require. Here is where I get a bit unsure if on the right track.

The small craft mounts three missile racks the pilot can act as the gunner.
Changing the weapons to a missile rack and two lasers. The pilot can act as the gunner for the lasers and a gunner the missile.

Of course the rule might mean that the pilot could be the gunner for one laser, with one gunner required for the other laser and a second gunner firing the missile rack. Doesn't make much sense, but then again I could be out to lunch.

Here comes the problem I'm having when the weapons mix of a laser and a missile are in a fixed position pointing off the small craft bow or nose with a target in front of the nose and another one off the left side who decides which is the priority target the pilot or gunner.

If the weapons are in a turret who has the priority to aim turret the gunner or pilot.

If one could have either a combination of fixed mounting and a turret or mini-turrets housing the weapons then the pilot could operate one type, say the lasers and the gunner the missile rack.

Hopefully I'm making sense.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
... I am quoting the Ship Crews Gunner rule exactly as written on Book 2 page 16 concerning armed ships.

"One gunner (gunner skill 1 or better required) may be hired per turret on a ship. Armed small craft require a gunner in addition to the pilot."

Had the rule read "Armed small craft require a gunner.", I would agree with you that one person, the small craft pilot, could also fill the gunner position.

The rule however includes the wording "in addition to the pilot" which to me means that the pilot cannot fill the gunner position. ...
Yes, the rules states, "Armed small craft require a gunner in addition to the pilot."

The rules also state,

1) "Each starship and non-starship requires a pilot."
2) "Each starship displacing greater than 200 tons must have a navigator."
3) "Any ship with tonnage 200 tons or more must have one engineer (with minimum engineer-1 skill) per 35 tons of drives and power plant."
4) "If high passengers are carried, then a steward is required."
5) "Each starship of 200 tons or more must have a medic (medic-1 skill or better)."

Then the rules tell you how to get around each of those requirements by having someone pull double duty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
... Book 5 Small Craft Crew

Quote:
"A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present. ..."

A small craft may only have one hard point. It may therefore mount up to three weapons, no more. The player may choose to see them as a turret, or he may choose to see them as fixed mount weapons like the guns pointing out the nose of a modern fighter. The rule is telling you that it doesn't matter which way he chooses to see it, it's all treated the same as if it were one turret. With nothing but vacuum around it, a thousand seconds to a turn and only the one hardpoint to worry about, there's no real problem with a small craft pointing its nose at a target when it's ready to shoot, the way a spinal mount cruiser does, and then pivoting about to put its drives where it wants before the enemy can react to its attitude change.

Note that Book 2 and High Guard differ in that the pilot in Book 2 draws a penalty for firing a weapon but in High Guard he's permitted to control one weapon type without penalty.
Apparently I didn't express myself correctly or I don't understand the comment. Actually I betting it is a combination of both.

1. Book 5 Crew requirements do not state that a gunner is required in addition to a pilot on armed small craft that Book 2 does.

2. Book 5 allows up to three weapons to be installed which is the maximum number of weapons that can be installed into a single turret. ...
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
...
3. Book 5 adds the detail that small craft weapons are probably rigidly fixed in position rather than a turret, while Book 2 doesn't mention a turret just one ton of weaponry which is actually, in my opinion, the fire control for a turret. ...
Book 2 has only 1 ton turrets, so correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
...
4. Book 5 a pilot can operate one type of weapon without the penalty applied to gunnery skill that would apply in Book 2. ...
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
...
5. Book 5 a gunner is required for each additional weapon type installed.

The possible weapon types are missiles, sandcasters, lasers, energy weapons, or a particle accelerator. ...
Correct. Because the small craft is limited to the one hardpoint, and because a mount with an energy weapon is limited to one other weapon, and a mount with a particle beam can have no other weapons, you will only ever have at most one gunner. The rules seem to think it might be possible to have three different offensive weapon types at the same time, but I don't see how.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
...
6. Pilot and Gunner firing weapons

A. The pilot can act a the gunner when either a particle accelerator or energy weapon is installed.

B. The pilot acts as the gunner when all the weapons are the same type for example three lasers or two missile racks.

C. Under the Book 5 rules a pilot can fire one type of weapon and a gunner is required if a second weapon type is installed, with the exception of a sandcaster which doesn't require. ...
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
...Here is where I get a bit unsure if on the right track.

The small craft mounts three missile racks the pilot can act as the gunner.
Changing the weapons to a missile rack and two lasers. The pilot can act as the gunner for the lasers and a gunner the missile.

Of course the rule might mean that the pilot could be the gunner for one laser, with one gunner required for the other laser and a second gunner firing the missile rack. Doesn't make much sense, but then again I could be out to lunch. ...
Well, you ... ummm ... I think ... Dagnabit!

The small craft's weapons can be arrayed as batteries just like any ship's, as far as I know. Makes more sense to pool them usually but if you're building it to hunt slow prey, like a freighter, then you can design the craft with separate batteries. of the same weapon. Ship rules say, "Turret weapons should have a crew of at least one per battery," (which makes it sound kind of optional - odd), but small craft rules stipulate one per type. Your pilot would pick up the missiles or lasers (one type) and your gunner would pick up the other type. The rules don't speak to adding gunnery skill (just pilot, ship's boat, ship tactics and fleet tactics), so who controls what is irrelevant.

However, if you house-ruled an option to add gunnery skill, and you had a boat with two lasers as two separate batteries, then you could conceivably have a player telling you, "I want the boat pilot to handle one laser, but I'm gonna have my gunner handle the other laser and the missile 'cause he has better skill."

At that point - well, I fall back on the specific wording of the rule: "If additional types are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types of weapons), a gunner is required for each additional weapon." Not weapon type - weapon. The pilot may operate one weapon type, the gunner operates one weapon. Doesn't actually make incredible sense, but it's the rules as worded. You could treat it as errata and read it as a gunner being required for each weapon "type" - that makes more sense - but it still doesn't allow the gunner to control two different types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
... Here comes the problem I'm having when the weapons mix of a laser and a missile are in a fixed position pointing off the small craft bow or nose with a target in front of the nose and another one off the left side who decides which is the priority target the pilot or gunner.

If the weapons are in a turret who has the priority to aim turret the gunner or pilot.

If one could have either a combination of fixed mounting and a turret or mini-turrets housing the weapons then the pilot could operate one type, say the lasers and the gunner the missile rack.

Hopefully I'm making sense.
Why does a missile have to be pointed at someone to shoot at them? There's no air in space. The missile pops out of the turret, orients on the bearing it was fed at launch, and then fires up its motor and goes charging off on that bearing.

The better example is a laser and an energy weapon. The energy weapon is a short-range weapon firing a blast of superheated hydrogen plasma at decidedly slower-than-light speeds. The laser is a long-range weapon firing a beam of light at - wait for it - light speed. The two are going to have very different targeting characteristics.

But recall that the same applies if the pilot has two lasers as two batteries of one each. He could conceivably fire at two different targets in the same turn. If the lasers are fixed mounts, that means two separate maneuvers by the boat. You could conceivably have one pilot controlling three individual lasers as three separate batteries - three separate maneuvers.

Remember we're dealing with thousand second turns. We're also dealing with the boat being able to maneuver for most of that turn and then quickly pointing its nose precisely at the target and squeezing off a shot without interrupting its maneuvering in a game-measurable way, just like the cruisers and dreadnoughts do. That implies that the weapon only has to actually be pointed at the target briefly in order to get off a shot. I figure most of the actual aiming is being done the way a submarine does it - sensors take in data, trying to get an exact fix on both the target's position and on its motion, then signal when they have a firing solution, at which point the pilot feeds the solution to the controls and the boat points the weapon and the pilot squeezes off a shot. Most of the time spent is not in training the weapon on the target, but in getting an accurate enough sensor fix to make a shot worthwhile. The sensors are clearly capable of tracking more than one target and orienting the ship for two (or even three, if it has the power) distinct laser shots without significantly affecting the boat's movement for game purposes; the combination of a laser with an energy weapon at a single or separate targets is not a significantly more difficult challenge.

So, for the question, "who has priority," the answer is, "whichever weapon the computer gives a targeting solution to first," and then the other gets priority when its targeting solution is received.
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Old August 9th, 2014, 12:54 PM
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Morning Carlobrand,


Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlobrand View Post
Yes, the rules states, "Armed small craft require a gunner in addition to the pilot."

The rules also state,

1) "Each starship and non-starship requires a pilot."
2) "Each starship displacing greater than 200 tons must have a navigator."
3) "Any ship with tonnage 200 tons or more must have one engineer (with minimum engineer-1 skill) per 35 tons of drives and power plant."
4) "If high passengers are carried, then a steward is required."
5) "Each starship of 200 tons or more must have a medic (medic-1 skill or better)."

Then the rules tell you how to get around each of those requirements by having someone pull double duty.
Apparently we do not agree on what "in addition" means. In my experience "in addition" is another way of saying plus.

The medic position, like the gunner position, uses "in addition". Here is how I translate both medic and gunner using poorly written if statements:

Medic: Each starship >=200 tons must have 1 medic. In addition, there must be at least one medic per 120 passengers.

M1: If Starship >= 200 tons crew = 1 medic)
M2: If(Starship carries passengers >=120 passengers (includes non-medical crew) crew = round((Passengers + Crew)/120) x 1 medic)

Total Medical Crew = M1 + M2 medics

Gunner: One gunner may be hired per turret on a ship. Armed mall craft require a gunner in addition to the pilot. Which I translate to be

G1. If starship or non-starship and has turrets crew may have 1 gunner per turret.
G2. If small craft with turret crew =1 gunner + 1 pilot.

If "in addition" for medics means add the ship tons >=200 ton 1 medic and the 1 medic per 120 passengers how can in "addition to" not mean 1 gunner and 1 pilot is required on a small craft?

Quote:
Book 2 has only 1 ton turrets, so correct.
Actually the fire control is one ton not the turret per LBB 2 page 15 F. Armament:

"One turret may be attached to each hard point on the ship. When it is attached one ton of fire control must be allocated."

Quote:
Correct. Because the small craft is limited to the one hardpoint, and because a mount with an energy weapon is limited to one other weapon, and a mount with a particle beam can have no other weapons, you will only ever have at most one gunner. The rules seem to think it might be possible to have three different offensive weapon types at the same time, but I don't see how.
Attack or offensive weapons include lasers, energy weapons, missiles, and the particle accelerator that can be carried in a turret. Of those weapons three lasers or three missile racks or a combination adding up to three could might the criteria of three offensive weapons.

Quote:
Well, you ... ummm ... I think ... Dagnabit!

The small craft's weapons can be arrayed as batteries just like any ship's, as far as I know. Makes more sense to pool them usually but if you're building it to hunt slow prey, like a freighter, then you can design the craft with separate batteries. of the same weapon. Ship rules say, "Turret weapons should have a crew of at least one per battery," (which makes it sound kind of optional - odd), but small craft rules stipulate one per type. Your pilot would pick up the missiles or lasers (one type) and your gunner would pick up the other type. The rules don't speak to adding gunnery skill (just pilot, ship's boat, ship tactics and fleet tactics), so who controls what is irrelevant.
I've asked for clarification a number of times about how batteries are designated when mixing two of one weapon type with another weapon type in one turret. The answer I've gotten is:

Each weapon, regardless of type, is consider to be one battery when mixed in the same turret. Two lasers and a missile rack breaks down to be 1 laser battery + 1 laser battery + 1 missile battery.

The breakdown doesn't make sense to me but that is the verdict handed down by the majority.

I've taken the skill rules to mean if a character operates a ship pilot skill for that type is required. If the same character wants to fire lasers gunnery skill for lasers is required.

Quote:
However, if you house-ruled an option to add gunnery skill, and you had a boat with two lasers as two separate batteries, then you could conceivably have a player telling you, "I want the boat pilot to handle one laser, but I'm gonna have my gunner handle the other laser and the missile 'cause he has better skill."

At that point - well, I fall back on the specific wording of the rule: "If additional types are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types of weapons), a gunner is required for each additional weapon." Not weapon type - weapon. The pilot may operate one weapon type, the gunner operates one weapon. Doesn't actually make incredible sense, but it's the rules as worded. You could treat it as errata and read it as a gunner being required for each weapon "type" - that makes more sense - but it still doesn't allow the gunner to control two different types.
Is a laser, or missile rack, or sandcaster a type of weapon?

Is a laser, or missile rack, or sandcaster a weapon?

To me they both say the same thing the laser, missile rack, and sandcaster are all weapons which the pilot or a gunner can operate one of them.

Oops I'll have get back to you I've got to take my Mom out shopping and to lunch.


Quote:
Why does a missile have to be pointed at someone to shoot at them? There's no air in space. The missile pops out of the turret, orients on the bearing it was fed at launch, and then fires up its motor and goes charging off on that bearing.

The better example is a laser and an energy weapon. The energy weapon is a short-range weapon firing a blast of superheated hydrogen plasma at decidedly slower-than-light speeds. The laser is a long-range weapon firing a beam of light at - wait for it - light speed. The two are going to have very different targeting characteristics.

But recall that the same applies if the pilot has two lasers as two batteries of one each. He could conceivably fire at two different targets in the same turn. If the lasers are fixed mounts, that means two separate maneuvers by the boat. You could conceivably have one pilot controlling three individual lasers as three separate batteries - three separate maneuvers.

Remember we're dealing with thousand second turns. We're also dealing with the boat being able to maneuver for most of that turn and then quickly pointing its nose precisely at the target and squeezing off a shot without interrupting its maneuvering in a game-measurable way, just like the cruisers and dreadnoughts do. That implies that the weapon only has to actually be pointed at the target briefly in order to get off a shot. I figure most of the actual aiming is being done the way a submarine does it - sensors take in data, trying to get an exact fix on both the target's position and on its motion, then signal when they have a firing solution, at which point the pilot feeds the solution to the controls and the boat points the weapon and the pilot squeezes off a shot. Most of the time spent is not in training the weapon on the target, but in getting an accurate enough sensor fix to make a shot worthwhile. The sensors are clearly capable of tracking more than one target and orienting the ship for two (or even three, if it has the power) distinct laser shots without significantly affecting the boat's movement for game purposes; the combination of a laser with an energy weapon at a single or separate targets is not a significantly more difficult challenge.

So, for the question, "who has priority," the answer is, "whichever weapon the computer gives a targeting solution to first," and then the other gets priority when its targeting solution is received.
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Hello Carlobrand,

I'm back and I'll pick-up

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Originally Posted by Carlobrand View Post
Well, you ... ummm ... I think ... Dagnabit!

The small craft's weapons can be arrayed as batteries just like any ship's, as far as I know. Makes more sense to pool them usually but if you're building it to hunt slow prey, like a freighter, then you can design the craft with separate batteries. of the same weapon. Ship rules say, "Turret weapons should have a crew of at least one per battery," (which makes it sound kind of optional - odd), but small craft rules stipulate one per type. Your pilot would pick up the missiles or lasers (one type) and your gunner would pick up the other type. The rules don't speak to adding gunnery skill (just pilot, ship's boat, ship tactics and fleet tactics), so who controls what is irrelevant.
I've asked for clarification a number of times about how batteries are designated when mixing two of one weapon type with another weapon type in one turret. The answer I've gotten is:

Each weapon, regardless of type, is consider to be one battery when mixed in the same turret. Two lasers and a missile rack breaks down to be 1 laser battery + 1 laser battery + 1 missile battery.

The breakdown doesn't make sense to me but that is the verdict handed down by the majority.

Quote:
I've taken the skill rules to mean if a character operates a ship pilot skill for that type is required. If the same character wants to fire lasers gunnery skill for lasers is required.
I omitted two items in the above comment. In combat per LBB2 the skills are DMs in LBB 5 as you point out skills of the pilot and gunner are not considered.

Quote:
However, if you house-ruled an option to add gunnery skill, and you had a boat with two lasers as two separate batteries, then you could conceivably have a player telling you, "I want the boat pilot to handle one laser, but I'm gonna have my gunner handle the other laser and the missile 'cause he has better skill."

At that point - well, I fall back on the specific wording of the rule: "If additional types are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types of weapons), a gunner is required for each additional weapon." Not weapon type - weapon. The pilot may operate one weapon type, the gunner operates one weapon. Doesn't actually make incredible sense, but it's the rules as worded. You could treat it as errata and read it as a gunner being required for each weapon "type" - that makes more sense - but it still doesn't allow the gunner to control two different types.
Is a laser, or missile rack, or sandcaster a type of weapon?

Is a laser, or missile rack, or sandcaster a weapon?

Replace: To me they both say the same thing the laser, missile rack, and sandcaster are all weapons which the pilot or a gunner can operate one of them.

With: To me they both say the same thing the laser, missile rack, and sandcaster are all weapons that either the pilot or a gunner can operate one of them.

No additional gunners are needed for a sandcaster, which I take to me either the pilot or gunner can be designated to launch a canister in addition to handling a laser, missile rack, energy weapon, or particle accelerator.

Here are the combinations I come up with for small craft weapons mix:

Unmixed weapons 1: 1, 2 , or 3 lasers which the can be designated to be fired by the pilot or a gunner.

Unmixed weapons 1: 1, 2 , or 3 missile racks which the can be designated to be fired by the pilot or a gunner.

Unmixed weapons 1: 1, 2 , or 3 sandcasters which the can be designated to be fired by the pilot or a gunner.

Mixed weapons 1: 1 missile rack and two lasers

Mixed weapons 2: 1 missile rack and two sandcasters

Mixed weapons 3: 1 laser and two missile racks

Mixed weapons 4: 1 laser and two sandcasters

Mixed weapons 5: 1 sandcaster and two lasers

Mixed weapons 6: 1 sandcaster and two missile racks

Mixed weapons 7: 1 sandcaster, 1 missile rack, and 1 laser

1 or 2 Energy weapons

1 particle accelerator.

As indicated that a pilot can fire one type of weapon which would allow the character to operate any of the unmixed weapons while three gunners would be needed, if the pilot didn't control one weapon type.

In the mixed weapons the pilot could either fire the single weapon type or the two laser type of weapons. One gunner would be needed to fire each of the mounted weapons, unless the pilot had control of the two lasers which I consider to be one type of weapon

Requiring one gunner per weapon when they are mounted in a turret doesn't make sense unless there a multiple fire control stations doesn't make a bit of sense.

Quote:
Why does a missile have to be pointed at someone to shoot at them? There's no air in space. The missile pops out of the turret, orients on the bearing it was fed at launch, and then fires up its motor and goes charging off on that bearing.

The better example is a laser and an energy weapon. The energy weapon is a short-range weapon firing a blast of superheated hydrogen plasma at decidedly slower-than-light speeds. The laser is a long-range weapon firing a beam of light at - wait for it - light speed. The two are going to have very different targeting characteristics.

But recall that the same applies if the pilot has two lasers as two batteries of one each. He could conceivably fire at two different targets in the same turn. If the lasers are fixed mounts, that means two separate maneuvers by the boat. You could conceivably have one pilot controlling three individual lasers as three separate batteries - three separate maneuvers.

Remember we're dealing with thousand second turns. We're also dealing with the boat being able to maneuver for most of that turn and then quickly pointing its nose precisely at the target and squeezing off a shot without interrupting its maneuvering in a game-measurable way, just like the cruisers and dreadnoughts do. That implies that the weapon only has to actually be pointed at the target briefly in order to get off a shot. I figure most of the actual aiming is being done the way a submarine does it - sensors take in data, trying to get an exact fix on both the target's position and on its motion, then signal when they have a firing solution, at which point the pilot feeds the solution to the controls and the boat points the weapon and the pilot squeezes off a shot. Most of the time spent is not in training the weapon on the target, but in getting an accurate enough sensor fix to make a shot worthwhile. The sensors are clearly capable of tracking more than one target and orienting the ship for two (or even three, if it has the power) distinct laser shots without significantly affecting the boat's movement for game purposes; the combination of a laser with an energy weapon at a single or separate targets is not a significantly more difficult challenge.

So, for the question, "who has priority," the answer is, "whichever weapon the computer gives a targeting solution to first," and then the other gets priority when its targeting solution is received.
In LBB5's abstract system the referee could allow missiles to be launched without pointing their noses in the general direction. None of my referee's where that kind, the missile's guidance system had to be pointed so that the target was in a cone 30 to 60 degrees left or right od the missiles warhead.

I didn't sleep well so my eyes are trying to close and my brain isn't staying focused so I'll end now. Sorry it I'm not making any sense.

As indicated a small craft, per discussions on this forum, when weapons are mixed, 2 lasers and a missile rack each weapon is one battery.

As long as the two laser targets are relatively close each in the direction the lasers are pointed can be each assigned a different target resulting in a Factor of 1 or 2.
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