Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > Other Versions of Traveller > Mongoose Traveller

Mongoose Traveller Discussion forums for the Traveller rules from Mongoose Publishing.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 03:47 AM
rust rust is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Augsburg
Posts: 1,026
Gallery : 0
rust Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
(...)
[*]Military Conscription of unemployed 18yo sophonts is normative[/list]
Those are encoded into CT, MT, T4, and T20, and just as strongly, into MGT.
This one is not really a part of MGT. A character that was unable to join any
other career has the choice of either to be drafted or to become a Drifter,
and if he accepts to be drafted he can be drafted into the Merchant or the
Agent / Law Enforcement career, which are not exactly military careers.
__________________
Abandon the Search for Truth... Settle for a Good Fantasy
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 04:07 AM
rancke's Avatar
rancke rancke is offline
Absent Friend
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 12,238
Gallery : 11
rancke Respected Citizenrancke Respected Citizenrancke Respected Citizenrancke Respected Citizenrancke Respected Citizenrancke Respected Citizenrancke Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rust View Post
This one is not really a part of MGT. A character that was unable to join any other career has the choice of either to be drafted or to become a Drifter, and if he accepts to be drafted he can be drafted into the Merchant or the Agent / Law Enforcement career, which are not exactly military careers.
I don't know about MGT, but in previous versions it's quite obvious (to me, anyway) that the so-called draft is a game artifact, not a reflection of the underlying "reality". One only has to contemplate the implications of interpreting the draft literally to realize how untenable such an assumption is.


Hans
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 07:13 AM
tbeard1999's Avatar
tbeard1999 tbeard1999 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tyler
Posts: 2,705
Gallery : 0
tbeard1999 Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin View Post
Punish you? For disagreeing with me? Not at all, despite the all-too-human temptation to do so. I'm trying to lay out definitions, so that everyone on this forum is on the same page. Mongoose Traveller, as written, is NOT truly generic in the same way that GURPS. It is too heavily influenced by the technological assumptions of the OTU to be. However, it can be used to provide the underpinnings for a number of settings. Each setting can/will/should modify the tech assumptions, and anything else it needs to.

In this sense, Mongoose Traveller is similar to the GDW "house system" of the late 80s, which was used to power Twilight 2000, Traveller: New Era, Dark Conspiracy, and Cadillacs and Dinosaurs. Not exactly generic, but very... flexible.

What I'm trying to do is stop the arguments over semantics by providing definitions within the context of Mongoose Traveller. These definitions, in general, will be those of Mongoose itself, to apply to discussions here.

Mogoose Traveller is the rules, not the setting.
With all due respect, I don't think it is either necessary or particularly helpful for you to define terms like "Traveller" by fiat. As noted in my other posts, your definition seems at least somewhat at odds with the MGT core rules. If MGT's core rules are vague and somehwat schizophrenic about what "Traveller" is, then the issue is hardly settled. I think that debate will do far more to help Mongoose settle the issue than COTI moderator fiat will.

I'd also note that the chief complaints about MGT fall into 4 categories, all of which seem reasonable (most of the time) to me.

1. MGT deviates from the OTU. I think that this is a legitimate line of criticism if the criticism accurately represents what the work in question says and if the work is:

a. An explicit OTU work (like the upcoming Aslan supplement).

b. Arguably an OTU work (i.e., the book has a title identical to a work that was originally an OTU work, or in some other way would lead a reasonable person to conclude that it is an OTU supplement, or that Mongoose has not explicitely excluded from OTU canon). In such a case, I think that Mongoose has an obligation to clarify its status as canon.

An invalid line of criticism would be on a work that is clearly not intended to be part of OTU canon (either explicitly stated as such by Mongoose or obvious to any reasonable observer -- Hammer's Slammers for instance). In that case, such criticism can be rebutted by simply pointing out that the work is not set in the OTU. If someones ignores that rebuttal and continues to complain, then I agree that he's being a jerk. No special forum rules are needed for this, IMHO. Anytime someone intentionally ignores a relevant point he is acting in bad faith. If he ignores this point twice, I think that the moderators should rebuke him.

2. MGT deviates from the technological and social assumptions that has been part of Traveller all along (such as allowing light sabers, or shuriken catapults, or proposing FTL drives that are different from the Traveller jump drives, etc.). This seems to me to also be a legitimate line of criticism, unless the items in question are clearly marked as optional or non-Traveller, etc.

3. MGT is mechanically defective or unsavory in some way. A fair line of criticism, seems to me, unless the critic is intentionally misrepresenting the mechanics in question.

4. Mongoose as a company does not respect Traveller. I'm conflicted on this, frankly. On the one hand, I think it's fair to infer reasonable motives from actions. On the other hand, mistakes happen and normal business pressures require compromises to be made on quality. If a company is to survive, it simply must get products out the door. So I personally will cut them a lot of slack and I wish others would as well. But beyond some point, I think it is reasonable to complain about shoddy research and lack of knowledge. In addition, Mongoose has demonstrated to its credit that it will listen to reasonable criticism and make changes in response. So I think it would be a bad idea to quash criticism about shoddy research. But there's no need to be a jerk about it either.

The problem, as always, is that it is not always clear when criticism has crossed the line. If you are going to start moderating this forum with a heavier hand, I strongly suggest you use warnings rather than infractions and that, if possible, you tell the poster what he did wrong. If the true goal is to reform someone's behavior, then he needs to understand what he did wrong.

I'd also note that despite the complaints about the tone here, this forum has apparently helped to motivate some serious and highly desirable changes in Mongoose's policies. Consider the effect that your intended moderating style would have had on those debates.

Last edited by tbeard1999; June 23rd, 2009 at 07:29 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 07:22 AM
rust rust is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Augsburg
Posts: 1,026
Gallery : 0
rust Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
This seems to me to also be a legitimate line of criticism, unless the items in question are clearly marked as optional or non-Traveller, etc.
Clearly marking any part of Mongoose Traveller as "non-Traveller" would seem
rather strange to me.
__________________
Abandon the Search for Truth... Settle for a Good Fantasy
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 07:27 AM
tbeard1999's Avatar
tbeard1999 tbeard1999 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tyler
Posts: 2,705
Gallery : 0
tbeard1999 Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rust View Post
Clearly marking any part of Mongoose Traveller as "non-Traveller" would seem
rather strange to me.
Agreed. But that kinda highlights the fact that Mongoose itself has not really done a thorough job of defining its product, doesn't it?

Or perhaps a better way of saying it is that Mongoose appears to have several mutually exclusive definitions of Traveller.

If so, then the issue is a legitimate topic of debate in my opinion and moderator fiat is unhelpful on this point.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 07:45 AM
rust rust is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Augsburg
Posts: 1,026
Gallery : 0
rust Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Or perhaps a better way of saying it is that Mongoose appears to have several mutually exclusive definitions of Traveller.
I am not certain about this, to me the text on their website seems quite
clear:

"Based on the Classic Traveller rules set, this book has been streamlined
for modern roleplaying, and yet still retains that unmistakable Traveller aura.
With complete rules for character and world creation, spaceships, encounters
and trading, it is your gateway into new universes.

The Traveller Main Rulebook is the cornerstone of all your Traveller games, to
be expanded upon with core supplements such as Mercenary and High Guard,
or used with different settings like Strontium Dog, Hammers Slammers, Judge
Dredd and, of course, the Original Traveller Universe."


I read it as:

- MGT is based upon CT (I would agree, and you have listed the important points in a previous post),

- MGT is a rules set,

- MGT is intended to be used for different science fiction universes,

- the OTU is one of the MGT settings.

I am not sure what else Mongoose would have to define to make this a clear
definition of their intentions for Mongoose Traveller.

Edit.: Oops, sorry - it was Aramis who listed the points, my bad.
__________________
Abandon the Search for Truth... Settle for a Good Fantasy

Last edited by rust; June 23rd, 2009 at 07:48 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 08:21 AM
tbeard1999's Avatar
tbeard1999 tbeard1999 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tyler
Posts: 2,705
Gallery : 0
tbeard1999 Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rust View Post
I am not certain about this, to me the text on their website seems quite
clear:

"Based on the Classic Traveller rules set, this book has been streamlined
for modern roleplaying, and yet still retains that unmistakable Traveller aura.
With complete rules for character and world creation, spaceships, encounters
and trading, it is your gateway into new universes.

The Traveller Main Rulebook is the cornerstone of all your Traveller games, to
be expanded upon with core supplements such as Mercenary and High Guard,
or used with different settings like Strontium Dog, Hammers Slammers, Judge
Dredd and, of course, the Original Traveller Universe."


I read it as:

- MGT is based upon CT (I would agree, and you have listed the important points in a previous post),

- MGT is a rules set,

- MGT is intended to be used for different science fiction universes,

- the OTU is one of the MGT settings.

I am not sure what else Mongoose would have to define to make this a clear
definition of their intentions for Mongoose Traveller.

Edit.: Oops, sorry - it was Aramis who listed the points, my bad.
I don't think that the last item is the most reasonable inference. Note what the text actually says:

"The Traveller Main Rulebook is the cornerstone of all your Traveller games, to
be expanded upon with core supplements such as Mercenary and High Guard,
or used with different settings like Strontium Dog..."

"Different" settings like Strontium Dog.

I think a more reasonable inference is that the OTU is the default setting in the MGT rules, but the game can be played with different universes like Strontium Dog, Hammer's Slammers, etc. In other words, I think that this text means that a reasonable player is entitled to assume that what he's reading is applicable to the OTU, unless the product explicitely states otherwise.

I'd add that your interpretation of the website text is at odds with the opening paragraphs of the Core Rules. These paragraphs refer to the Imperium and other OTU tropes.

I still think that Mongoose is sending mixed signals as to what it thinks Traveller is.

Last edited by tbeard1999; June 23rd, 2009 at 08:42 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 08:45 AM
atpollard's Avatar
atpollard atpollard is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Port Richey
Posts: 9,325
Gallery : 43
Visit atpollard's Blog
atpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesomeatpollard Awesome
Default

It seems a pointless folly to discuss Mongoose Traveller (the rules set) or The Third Imperium (the setting) using definitions of Traveller and OTU different from those clearly articulated by MongooseMatt as being the Mongoose working definitions of those terms.

[Obviously I mean in the Mongoose Traveller section of COTI].

The statements in the core book which appear to contradict these "straight from the horse's mouth" definitions would be best discussed in the context of being eratta or unclearly worded rather than proof that MongooseMatt does not really understand how Mongoose defines Traveller and the OTU.

Colin simply repeated the Mongoose definitions.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 08:48 AM
rust rust is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Augsburg
Posts: 1,026
Gallery : 0
rust Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
I think a more reasonable inference is that the OTU is the default setting in the MGT rules, but the game can be played with different universes like Strontium Dog, Hammer's Slammers, etc.
No problem with this. I think it can be interpreted both ways, because of the
"... it is your gateway into new universes" in the previous paragraph, but I
see the Third Imperium as the default setting myself.
Quote:
I'd add that your interpretation of the website text is at odds with the opening paragraphs of the Core Rules. These paragraphs refer to the Imperium and other OTU tropes.
In the German version, the only one I have, the text starts with the Third Im-
perium and then adds the possibility to use other settings, too, so this also
would point towards the Third Imperium as the default setting.

I fear the next definition problem would be to determine the precise meaning
of "default setting" and the relations between a "default setting" and other
settings, but this seems to be a can of worms to me.

For example, the default setting of D&D is the World of Greyhawk, but I do
not know a single D&D player who uses that setting (somehow the Forgotten
Realms are the fashion here), and the default setting of GURPS is the Infinite
Worlds setting, which I also have not yet seen played much.
On the other hand, Runequest's default setting Glorantha indeed is the most
commonly used setting, at least in my experience, like the 1920s indeed are
the most commonly used Call of Cthulhu setting.
__________________
Abandon the Search for Truth... Settle for a Good Fantasy
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 08:55 AM
tbeard1999's Avatar
tbeard1999 tbeard1999 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tyler
Posts: 2,705
Gallery : 0
tbeard1999 Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
It seems a pointless folly to discuss Mongoose Traveller (the rules set) or The Third Imperium (the setting) using definitions of Traveller and OTU different from those clearly articulated by MongooseMatt as being the Mongoose working definitions of those terms.
And where are they so "clearly articulated" by Matt?

While I'd agree that Mongoose can and should clearly define what it means by "Traveller", I also think that definition should appear in the games themselves and the advertising. Particularly if this definition seriously differs from how most Traveller fans have defined "Traveller" over the years.

So *if* Mongoose has a significantly different view of Traveller than most of the old time Traveller fans, and *if* if fails to reflect this in the products and marketing materials, then I think it is perfectly reasonable to take them to task.

The fact that the products and advertising aren't consistent with Matt's purported definition strongly suggests to me that Mongoose's position has evolved...and is probably still be evolving. I have no problem with that. But since debate can drive these kinds of improvements in a product, I am opposed to Colin (or anyone else) imposing a definition by fiat that isn't even reflected in the actual products.

Last edited by tbeard1999; June 23rd, 2009 at 09:03 AM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.