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  #31  
Old June 12th, 2017, 04:14 AM
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Thanks - Excellent synopsis aramis!

Helps put in perspective how much was crammed into those LBBs.

(P.S. - You could also add Ship traveling, operations & encounters.)
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  #32  
Old June 12th, 2017, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
The original scope appears to be largely procedural...
And excellent post. I agree with all of it. It's a terrific examination of one of things I love about Books 1-3.

Can you talk about how this connects to Mike's original post, and specifically in the context of the quotes I posted earlier.

Thanks!
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  #33  
Old June 12th, 2017, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creativehum View Post
And excellent post. I agree with all of it. It's a terrific examination of one of things I love about Books 1-3.

Can you talk about how this connects to Mike's original post, and specifically in the context of the quotes I posted earlier.

Thanks!
Simply put, Mike's reducing it from "If X then Y" to "If X in a critical situation, then Y."
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  #34  
Old June 12th, 2017, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Simply put, Mike's reducing it from "If X then Y" to "If X in a critical situation, then Y."
I still fail to see the difference.

Do referees/game masters do otherwise? Make you roll every single action? No.

You roll when you're trying to do something aka resolve a critical situation. How is what Mike's suggesting literally any different from a roleplaying game's usual dice resolution mechanic?
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  #35  
Old June 13th, 2017, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Clone95 View Post
I still fail to see the difference.

Do referees/game masters do otherwise? Make you roll every single action? No.

You roll when you're trying to do something aka resolve a critical situation. How is what Mike's suggesting literally any different from a roleplaying game's usual dice resolution mechanic?
Many of the rolls called for in the Traveller rules are not "critical situations". Gambling is not a critical situation... but it calls for rolls regularly.

Finding last minute cargos is not a critical situation, but it's a specified procedural roll.

Many of the procedures are pretty bloody mundane, really... and in fact are pretty common. The Roll to avoid a law enforcement encounter is not a critical situation; it is a specified procedural.

Procedural play is rather simulationist. Mike is Not. Mike is reducing the process simulation extremely. I don't.

If you gamble, I roll the check to see if someone accuses you of cheating. Even if it's just, "I'm going to lose Cr50 over an hour on the Cr0.25 ante table to make it look like I belong in the hotel casino."

If you go into town, I roll a law check every 4 hours like clockwork. once a day if you stay in. Then the reaction roll to see if they're actually interested in you. But I don't tell you the reaction roll....
... which has lead paranoid players to take on local cops with no reason.
... which has lead to insufficiently paranoid players being exposed to Adv. 8.
... and has lead to some interesting sessions of players second guessing whether or not to interact or try to just pass on through.

Note that a "stay in" might be cops on your block, not after you, but just you becoming aware of them.
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aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
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  #36  
Old June 13th, 2017, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Many of the rolls called for in the Traveller rules are not "critical situations". Gambling is not a critical situation... but it calls for rolls regularly.

Finding last minute cargos is not a critical situation, but it's a specified procedural roll.

Many of the procedures are pretty bloody mundane, really... and in fact are pretty common. The Roll to avoid a law enforcement encounter is not a critical situation; it is a specified procedural.

Procedural play is rather simulationist. Mike is Not. Mike is reducing the process simulation extremely. I don't.

If you gamble, I roll the check to see if someone accuses you of cheating. Even if it's just, "I'm going to lose Cr50 over an hour on the Cr0.25 ante table to make it look like I belong in the hotel casino."

If you go into town, I roll a law check every 4 hours like clockwork. once a day if you stay in. Then the reaction roll to see if they're actually interested in you. But I don't tell you the reaction roll....
... which has lead paranoid players to take on local cops with no reason.
... which has lead to insufficiently paranoid players being exposed to Adv. 8.
... and has lead to some interesting sessions of players second guessing whether or not to interact or try to just pass on through.

Note that a "stay in" might be cops on your block, not after you, but just you becoming aware of them.
Aramis...

Mike has used the word "situation" specifically.

The term has a specific use in the text of the Classic Traveller rules.

Quote:
"The airlraft can be dangerous to operate in high speed situations or in bad weather."
Quote:
"Specific throws for specific situations must be generated. Obviously, some throws will be harder than others, and many will be impossible without an accumulation of DMs based on expertise, education, dexterity, intelligence, and the availability of parts and tools."
Quote:
"For example: one of a group of adventurers arrives at an aging crisis (page 8) while on an expedition into the wilds of a unsettled planet. No one has medical expertise. Jack of all trades can be applied as a substitute for medical skill in this situation..."
Quote:
Skills and the Referee: It is impossible for any table of information to cover all aspects of every potential situation, and the above listing is by no means complete in its coverage of the effects of skills. This is where the referee becomes an important part of the game process. The above listing of skills and game effects must necessarily be taken as a guide, and followed, altered, or ignored as the actual situation dictates.
This use of the word "situation" is specifically echoes in the passage Mike reference and I quoted in full from The Traveller Adventure.

The passage begins:
Quote:
Situation Throws: In the absence of any other guidance, the referee may always resort to the situation throw...
And then goes on to illustrate the Referee creating Throws for situations not covered at all in any of the Basic Traveller rules.

All of this is to make plain that when speaking of Situation Throws (per the title of this thread) no one would ever be speaking of looking for cargo or making a roll to avoid law enforcement. Those rolls are clearly, bluntly procedural.

The definition of the Situation Throw ("in the absence of any other guidelines") are clearly not procedural, and probably not covered by any of the finite procedures for skill use given in the rules compared to the infinite number of situations a Player Character might find himself engaged in.

Leaving aside any concerns for the word "critical" for the moment I want to see if can we remove any concern for rolls clearly outside the scope of what Mike was addressing.
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"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and 3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves." -- Mike Wightman
"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and is that the ref must make most of the decisions himself." -- flykiller
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  #37  
Old June 13th, 2017, 02:32 AM
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CT still supports a proceduralist approach; I know (from years of discussions with him here, and via email) that Mike is not into procedural play. He put "critical" in the title for a reason — he doesn't like nor use procedural throws outside critical situations for the vast majority of things.

Mike and I both were extremely active in the T20 playtest, and while I respect him, and he seems to respect me, we come at CT from very different points of view.

Procedural play is also inherently a heavier feel than narrative with occasional critical situation rolls.

The term Mike chose implies "Saving Throws"... a term/concept from D&D. And it's a valid playstyle within the CT context, but it's not the way the CT rules are written, and it's not a method that will be able to support the procedural play.

The core of CT is a series of procedural rules. Marc was, like both Frank and Loren, a Wargames designer. Rules as procedures. Simulation via rules. A significant subset of players, however, treated it as a rules-lite set of exemplars. And others who saw it as a framework to expand upon with new procedures.

Mike - appologies for the digression dominating the thread.
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aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
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  #38  
Old June 13th, 2017, 10:07 AM
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Can you please address the example Mike referenced in The Traveller Adventure regarding Situation Throws in the context of your statements.

When I look at what you are saying in the context of all the material I have quoted so far it makes sense. When I look at your statement in the context of the material from a different angle it looks utterly ridiculous.

So I think I'm close to understanding the stand you are taking. But looking for you to simply put it into the context of the specific example offered in The Traveller Adventure to make it make sense.

Thank you.
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"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and 3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves." -- Mike Wightman
"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and is that the ref must make most of the decisions himself." -- flykiller

Last edited by creativehum; June 13th, 2017 at 10:22 AM..
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  #39  
Old June 13th, 2017, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creativehum View Post
Can you please address the example Mike referenced in The Traveller Adventure regarding Situation Throws in the context of your statements.

When I look at what you are saying in the context of all the material I have quoted so far it makes sense. When I look at your statement in the context of the material from a different angle it looks utterly ridiculous.

So I think I'm close to understanding the stand you are taking. But looking for you to simply put it into the context of the specific example offered in The Traveller Adventure to make it make sense.

Thank you.

I'm a proceduralist. CT gives me an incomplete set. That passage is an example of new procedures to write and how to do so; it's by no means anywhere close to the core rules.

It's not even a "critical situation" ruleset. Restricting throws to "critical situations" is NOT CT.

CT, rules as written, throws are for resolving situations. Not just critical situations.

The examples given in TTA are task rolls, not critical situation rolls. The exemplar of crossing town... Fail the taxi, look for a bus, or hitchhike, or rent a bicycle, or even just walk... nothing critical about the taxi.

given the examples, not even all of them are interesting failures except in a resource management mindset. A taxi is less time than the bus or a bicycle, and those less time than walking; expense is inverse to time taken.

Throws are being used in CT rules in a non-critical situation just as much as a critical one. The GM is allowed to ignore them, but the rules are presented as a series of if-thens, and a proceduralist approach is that they are prescriptive and schematic: you can add more at any time, but the ones given are typical (and often mundane) uses.
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aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
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  #40  
Old June 13th, 2017, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
I'm a proceduralist. CT gives me an incomplete set. That passage is an example of new procedures to write and how to do so; it's by no means anywhere close to the core rules.
Even though the rules themselves (especially the 1977 edition) make it clear that creating new procedures is a core aspect of the rules?

From the 1977 rules:
Quote:
Skills and the Referee: It is impossible for any table of information to cover all aspects of every potential situation, and the above listing is by no means complete in its coverage of the effects of skills. This is where the referee becomes an impor-tant part of the game process. The above listing of skills and game effects must necessarily be taken as a guide, and followed, altered, or ignored as the actual situ-ation dictates.
From both the 1977 and 1981 rules:
Quote:
The referee must settle disputes about the rules (and may use his own imagination while doing so, rather than strictly adhering to the letter of the rules).
I'm honestly (and I mean honestly) baffled by how you Referee your game.

Do your players only do things that are covered in the Skill description guidelines? Do you discourage them from doing things that are not covered in the descriptions of the skills?

Do you consider the text quoted above that literally tell the Referee that he cannot use the letter of the rules to play the game successfully some sort of mistake, or not part of the core rules, or some sort of blustery bulls##t so you dismiss them as not very important?

(Again, I'm taking the "critical" element of the table right now. Let's assume for the moment "critical" is not on table. I'm simply trying to understand how you play the game in the context of -- well, either only playing out situations from the from the guidelines typed on the page... or not.)
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"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and is that the ref must make most of the decisions himself." -- flykiller

Last edited by creativehum; June 13th, 2017 at 11:37 AM..
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