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  #21  
Old June 13th, 2019, 04:40 PM
Condottiere Condottiere is offline
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Everyone understood the limitations of the treaty, which is why they knew how far they could push or when they cheated.
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  #22  
Old June 14th, 2019, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
Everyone understood the limitations of the treaty, which is why they knew how far they could push or when they cheated.
Like the Italians - with their cruisers that exceeded the 10,000 standard tons limit by a good 1,700 tons (17%)?

The UK caught them* and did nothing.


* the heavy cruiser Gorizia had to be drydocked in the UK military port of Gibraltar in August 1936 for emergency repairs, which allowed the RN to get a really accurate measurement of her displacement - 11,712 t. std.
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  #23  
Old June 14th, 2019, 03:14 AM
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Experienced naval architects can assess a ship's stats.

I believe the Japanese took extraordinary precautions with the Yamatos, even after they had left the treaty.

The terms suited the British at tht time, since their primary concern was getting into a naval race with the Americans, and had enough margin that even if everyone else cheated, they could still crush them.

Hindsight says that they should have gone on that naval race, as they would have retained their shipbuilding capabilities, bankrupted the Japanese, and ensured that the Germans couldn't even think of competing again. As for the Ameicans, Congress seemed remarkably stingy at that time.
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  #24  
Old June 14th, 2019, 11:19 AM
wbuthod wbuthod is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilemall View Post
Heh, my idea of psionics would raise the possibility of too LITTLE politeness and too much truth, leading all too easily to conflict whereas a smooth liaison type could diplomatically avoid 'honest' communication if it is detrimental to the mission.
Where I work, the counselors have been heard to say, "Truth without empathy is cruelty". I believe that might apply to diplomacy as well.
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  #25  
Old June 14th, 2019, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
Experienced naval architects can assess a ship's stats.

I believe the Japanese took extraordinary precautions with the Yamatos, even after they had left the treaty.

The terms suited the British at tht time, since their primary concern was getting into a naval race with the Americans, and had enough margin that even if everyone else cheated, they could still crush them..
As for the British crushing anyone, a lot of their ships were a bit worn out, and also were not armored on the all-or-nothing style of the U.S. In a naval race with the U.S., the British would have lost, quite rapidly, as their economy was a mess after World War One. The U.S. had moved into a lot of the U.K. export markets during the war.

Quote:
Hindsight says that they should have gone on that naval race, as they would have retained their shipbuilding capabilities, bankrupted the Japanese, and ensured that the Germans couldn't even think of competing again. As for the Ameicans, Congress seemed remarkably stingy at that time.
Winston Churchill was the one wielding the Treasury budget axe during the early 1920s when the naval spending reduction took place. I think that answers the question over whether or not Britain could have afforded a naval race. The negotiators for the British during the treaty negotiations had already been told that there would be no new battleships or major spending.
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  #26  
Old June 14th, 2019, 06:23 PM
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It suited British government interests after a rather expensive war, it didn't suit the Admiralty's.

The Anglo Japanese Treaty would likely have been renewed, anchoring the Imperial flank in Asia, with continuous tecnology exchanges between them, ensuring that Japanese wouldn't feel the need to bankrupt themselves in a naval build up, and the British having a pretty good idea of what they were capable of.

This means they can concentrate their battleships in the Mediterranean and North Atlantic, persuasive deterrence to the Italians, who seemed to be more concerned with the French. The French kept an ee of the German naval capability primarily.

The Americans viewed the Japanese as their primary competitor in the Pacific, and would have to split their Navy in the event that any conflict with the Japanese actively drew in the British, and any race would require building up fores on both coasts.

The British would be free to adjust their force composition, which the treaty had drastically curtailed, especially with cruisers.

British naval technology evolves, so if they felt that all or nothing contributes more to the combat worthiness of their battleships, they would have introduced it, and being free to build new fast battleships, they could retire old ones and improve each generation.

Having new battlships and a reserve of old ones, German surface raiders would be soon hunted down, and the loss of any capital ship wouldn't become a crisis, allowing the Royal Navy commanders the leeway to be highly aggressive.
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  #27  
Old June 15th, 2019, 10:13 AM
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Hey Chuck,

Quote:
Originally Posted by gchuck View Post
Communication with 'Alien' races, i.e. Aslan, Vargr, and what not, is a big stumbling block for me.
For many of us. Me included.

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Originally Posted by gchuck View Post
Do they speak ganglic? Can their mouths make the sounds required, or are they stereo-typically accented almost to the point of incomprehensibility?
This what they speak:
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Languages_of_Charted_Space

Some can do Anglic, some can't. It's on a sophont species by species basis.

Some must have accents.

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Originally Posted by gchuck View Post
Do you guys use 'translators'?
Yes.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Voder

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Communications_Equipment

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Language_Translator

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Originally Posted by gchuck View Post
They're ALIEN, and thus different. Grunting and pointing is right out for me.

It's CT, and a Game, so I'm trying to make it simple, yet engaging.
Sounds good. The #1 rule is to have a good time! Enjoy!

Shabbat Shalom,
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  #28  
Old June 16th, 2019, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
As for the British crushing anyone, a lot of their ships were a bit worn out, and also were not armored on the all-or-nothing style of the U.S. In a naval race with the U.S., the British would have lost, quite rapidly, as their economy was a mess after World War One. The U.S. had moved into a lot of the U.K. export markets during the war.



Winston Churchill was the one wielding the Treasury budget axe during the early 1920s when the naval spending reduction took place. I think that answers the question over whether or not Britain could have afforded a naval race. The negotiators for the British during the treaty negotiations had already been told that there would be no new battleships or major spending.
Recent analysis of the UK economy in the 1920s shows that it could have easily afforded to build at least the 4 new G3 battlecruisers they had ordered - and possibly even the N3 battleships planned - without cutting other government spending very much at all.


The US Congress had told the President that the battleships & battlecruisers already laid down (6x South Dakota 1919 & 6x Lexington) would not be funded for completion - at best the USN might see 2 of each. Hence the US desire to push forward on a treaty, to limit everyone else as well

Which is also why the USN had prepared preliminary plans for converting some of the Lexingtons to aircraft carriers BEFORE the US offered to host the Naval Limitation Treaty talks!
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  #29  
Old June 16th, 2019, 12:51 PM
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I don't think any of the treaty ships is particularly relevant to the situation in Traveller as presented in canon. If you look at the situation for the Imperium, the main 'player' in the game, it is more like Rome when it comes to a military comparison.

The Imperium is surrounded by states hostile to it, to one degree or another, on three sides. Only the trailing side of the empire is really free of serious states that are or could present a real challenge militarily.

You have the Vargr coreward. But, they are fractionalized and would produce more of a sort of Barbary Pirate enemy. That is, perpetual piracy, privateering, and low grade warfare that just grinds you down from its endlessness.

Spinward, you have the Zhodani. They represent a potentially equal threat to the Imperium itself. But, their position is such that they can't really get at the core of the empire and peripheral sniping and colonial warfare are more likely with them.

The Aslan and Solomani are rimward. The Aslan present only a relatively minor threat while the Solomani clearly are a continuing one.

Only on the trailing side of the empire are there no major polities that can directly threaten the Imperium.

So, given that situation, I'd think that the Imperium would more likely concentrate their "legions" so-to-speak, on the frontiers of the empire to prevent incursions by their enemies rather than have some massive central military force in standing that costs a lot and does little or nothing. They would have time to raise such a force in the event of a major war with a neighbor-- most likely the Solomani then Zhodani.
There is also no reason for the Imperium to keep a huge battleline of very large warships but rather limit that force mostly to one in being. That is, most of the serious battleships they have sit in port somewhere with caretaker crews for the most part. Many might not be equipped with the latest technology either.

On paper the force looks formidable. In reality it is mostly for show and would take time to get manned up and refitted for proper combat. That too would keep costs down. The Romans did the same after they won against Carthage. They got rid of most of their expensive fleet as there were no more challengers. Here, the Imperium has most of their serious fleet in a caretaker / mothball status but publicly says it's all ready to go and vicious as hell. Reports to the contrary are rapidly and ruthlessly put down to keep the truth from coming out.

This all makes sense from the political "feel" that I get from how the Traveller universe is put together. Of all the large 'enemies' the empire faces, really only the Solomani are a threat. I'd think the Zhodani can focus more coreward or on other threats they might have that aren't shown or discussed in published material. The Vargr are too fractional. The Aslan are more likely to want to trade than fight. The Imperium can pretty much dismiss the rest as small fry not worth their time to deal with.
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