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  #21  
Old May 25th, 2019, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Straybow View Post
I don't think "double occupancy staterooms" would describe 20th century naval accommodations. An enlisted bunk might be half the size of a low berth, including an allowance for the narrow walkway between the racks (3 high on each side in some cases). An officer's room would certainly be no more than 1 dton, and that would include about ¼ dton for it's share of the corridor.
Try 4 high for enlisted bunks, along with some “hot bunking”. Junior officers quarters would have 2 to 4 in occupancy, while CPO quarters would between 2 and 6. A lot of men would sleep on deck if the weather was good. Those ships were very crowded.
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  #22  
Old May 25th, 2019, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Straybow View Post
I don't think "double occupancy staterooms" would describe 20th century naval accommodations. An enlisted bunk might be half the size of a low berth, including an allowance for the narrow walkway between the racks (3 high on each side in some cases). An officer's room would certainly be no more than 1 dton, and that would include about ¼ dton for it's share of the corridor.
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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Try 4 high for enlisted bunks, along with some “hot bunking”. Junior officers quarters would have 2 to 4 in occupancy, while CPO quarters would between 2 and 6. A lot of men would sleep on deck if the weather was good. Those ships were very crowded.
While I need to look at some of the details in the rules for Staterooms, that 2 dTons per person (24 spaces) in the current design (and traditional Traveller designs) have included ALL of the space required for the people aboard the ship.

The two of you are focused on the sleeping quarters, but have ignored the laundry, the galley, the sick bay, the common room, refreshers, showers, and other spaces that may be included in the volume called “Staterooms” at this level of abstraction.
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  #23  
Old May 25th, 2019, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
While I need to look at some of the details in the rules for Staterooms, that 2 dTons per person (24 spaces) in the current design (and traditional Traveller designs) have included ALL of the space required for the people aboard the ship.

The two of you are focused on the sleeping quarters, but have ignored the laundry, the galley, the sick bay, the common room, refreshers, showers, and other spaces that may be included in the volume called “Staterooms” at this level of abstraction.
In WW One, the Royal Navy’s accommodations for enlisted on cruisers and battleships ran from 12.5 square feet per man to 32.7 square feet per man. That included everything but the sickbay. The space for officers ran from 138 to 350 square feet per officer. U.S. accommodations were viewed by the Royal Navy as being generous in providing extra space outside of the berthing area. If you want to more understanding of housing spaces for WW2-era U.S. ships, research the USCG Bramble online and get the general drawings.

Do not even think about try to use those housing standards for a WW2 U.S. Navy submarine. I have slept on a couple of those. And the U.S. subs were viewed as excessively luxurious by the Royal Navy.
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Last edited by timerover51; May 25th, 2019 at 04:41 PM..
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  #24  
Old May 25th, 2019, 05:17 PM
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Actually, I have finally figured out how to get the laptop online, so if a Moderator gives permission, I will upload the general arrangement deck plans of the U.S. Coast Guard Buoy Tender Bramble, built in 1944, to the Image Gallery or File Library for anyone to use to get an idea about ship habitability. They are from the National Park Service, and are public domain. In TIFF format, they are 655 kilobytes a piece.
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  #25  
Old May 25th, 2019, 09:03 PM
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5 ton Barbette:
The secondary guns are housed in a "Barbette" that is about 5 dTons (60 spaces) and contain 2 guns per Barbette. (approximately 4m cube). The "60 space Large Turret" requires 1 weapon points for the turret (1 per 60 spaces). The second weapon will require an additional weapon point. Two 5" guns in a 60 space turret will require 2 Weapon Points per 2 Gun 5 ton Barbette.

Now to calculate spaces inside the 60 space "Turret": 3 spaces for gunner plus 48 spaces for two Artillery Gun-TL 4 at 8D6 and 24 spaces per gun plus 9 unused spaces:
  • 3 spaces gunner
  • 24 spaces for Artillery Gun-TL 4
  • 24 spaces for Artillery Gun-TL 4
  • 9 spaces unused (allows for 3 additional crewmen at 3 spaces each)

Mounting ten 5 ton Barbette will use 20 weapon points and 600 spaces, while providing 20 Artillery Gun-TL 4.
  • Ten 5 ton Barbettes [Secondary Armament]
  • Large Turrets (x10) = - 30 spaces
  • Artillery Gun-TL 4 (x20) = - 480 spaces [20 weapon points taken]
  • Bonus gunners & loaders (x 30) = - 90 spaces

(to be continued)

Last edited by atpollard; May 27th, 2019 at 11:23 AM..
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  #26  
Old May 25th, 2019, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
5 ton Barbette:
The secondary guns are housed in a "Barbette" that is about 5 dTons (60 spaces) and contain 2 guns per Barbette. (approximately 4m cube). The "60 space Large Turret" requires 1 weapon points for the turret (1 per 60 spaces). The second weapon will require an additional weapon point. Two 5" guns in a 60 space turret will require 2 Weapon Points per 2 Gun 5 ton Barbette.

Now to calculate spaces inside the 60 space "Turret": 3 spaces for gunner plus 48 spaces for two Artillery Gun-TL 4 at 8D6 and 24 spaces per gun plus 9 unused spaces:
  • 3 spaces gunner
  • 24 spaces for Artillery Gun-TL 4
  • 24 spaces for Artillery Gun-TL 4
  • 9 spaces unused (allows for 3 additional crewmen at 3 spaces each)

Mounting ten 5 ton Barbette will use 20 weapon points and 50 spaces, while providing 20 Artillery Gun-TL 4.
  • Ten 5 ton Barbettes [Secondary Armament]
  • Large Turrets (x10) = - 30 spaces
  • Artillery Gun-TL 4 (x20) = - 480 spaces [20 weapon points taken]
  • Bonus gunners & loaders (x 30) = - 90 spaces

(to be continued)
[/QUOTE]

Aside from not allowing anywhere near enough men for the 5 inch gun crews, how much are you allowing for the men passing ammunition from the magazines to the ammunition supply hoist to the gun mount? The ammunition does not magically get from the magazines to the mount, and the magazines are not directly under the gun mount. The engine spaces are under the mounts.

Edit Note: The following site discusses the gun crew and their duties for the 5" twin mount.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS...mk12_Crews.php

Another site gives 13 men for the direct mount crew, and another 13 feeding ammunition into the mount ready use ring, for a total of 26. That does not include the magazine supply crew.

Edit Note 2: The following site gives the operating instructions for a 5"/38 gun mount, both single and double. It can be downloaded.

https://maritime.org/doc/destroyer/f...index.htm#pg60

Edit Note 3: The web site for the Fletcher-class destroyer USS Five Sullivans gives the crew for a single 5"/38 mount of 15. There are also photos of the 5" single mounts.

http://www.williammaloney.com/Aviati...unts/index.htm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
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These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.

Last edited by timerover51; May 26th, 2019 at 12:31 AM..
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  #27  
Old May 26th, 2019, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Aside from not allowing anywhere near enough men for the 5 inch gun crews, how much are you allowing for the men passing ammunition from the magazines to the ammunition supply hoist to the gun mount? The ammunition does not magically get from the magazines to the mount, and the magazines are not directly under the gun mount. The engine spaces are under the mounts.
Both NONE and THE FULL HISTORIC NUMBER are correct answers to this.

I already allowed for a full crew on the ship, so I have all the bodies that the ship needs.

On the other hand, AMMUNITION is assigned space in the next step, separate from the weapons. So the loaders have not been assigned yet (nor has the space for the ammo magazines).

I am actually not even finished assigning WEAPONS.
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Old May 26th, 2019, 12:59 PM
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Mr. Pollard, I am not sure it is worthwhile to continue this discussion. Aside from using habitability standards that are intended for starships, rather than the standards of the times, the other problem was that the final WW2 crew of just about all U.S.Navy ships was considerably larger than they were designed for. That was true for both officers and enlisted. The primary reason for that was the massive increase in electronics and anti-aircraft batteries.
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  #29  
Old May 26th, 2019, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
While I need to look at some of the details in the rules for Staterooms, that 2 dTons per person (24 spaces) in the current design (and traditional Traveller designs) have included ALL of the space required for the people aboard the ship.

The two of you are focused on the sleeping quarters, but have ignored the laundry, the galley, the sick bay, the common room, refreshers, showers, and other spaces that may be included in the volume called “Staterooms” at this level of abstraction.
Again not knowing about CE, MT:HT introduced the bunks as accomodations, mostly were for steerage and using 1/2 ton each.

Of course, for space travel they would be quite uncomfortable ,but in a sea ship, where you can go the deck and even breath fresh air and feel the open skies over you, I guess they could be used, and probably would be the equivalent to those crew accomodations for WWII era ships.
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Old May 26th, 2019, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Mr. Pollard, I am not sure it is worthwhile to continue this discussion. Aside from using habitability standards that are intended for starships, rather than the standards of the times, the other problem was that the final WW2 crew of just about all U.S.Navy ships was considerably larger than they were designed for. That was true for both officers and enlisted. The primary reason for that was the massive increase in electronics and anti-aircraft batteries.
I appreciate your feelings.
Just by way of explanation, I am attempting a first pass through the design using the rules as they are written to see where time and effort might best be invested in expanding options.

Just as a quick point of reference (between Traveller dTons and Square Feet per person accommodations), I use 50 sf as equal to 1 dTon of living area. So starting with the 4 dTon Standard Stateroom and your range of 350 sf to 12.5 sf per person, some practical break points for the CE rules would be ...
  • 7 dTons = 1 ‘Officer’ Stateroom = 84 spaces (VDS) = 350 sf
  • 6 dTons = 1 ‘Officer’ Stateroom = 72 spaces (VDS) = 300 sf
  • 5 dTons = 1 ‘Officer’ Stateroom = 60 spaces (VDS) = 250 sf
  • 4 dTons = 1 Standard Stateroom = 48 spaces (VDS) = 200 sf
  • 3 dTons = 1 ‘Officer’ Stateroom = 36 spaces (VDS) = 150 sf
  • 2 dTons = 1 Compact Stateroom = 24 spaces (VDS) = 100 sf

For enlisted men, we can increase the occupancy per 100 sf with military style bunks ...
  • (1-bunk) Barracks (2 dTon = 100 sf)= 24 spaces per person (VDS) = 100 sf per person
  • 2-bunk Barracks (2 dTon = 100 sf)= 12 spaces per person (VDS) = 50 sf per person
  • 4-bunk Barracks (2 dTon = 100 sf)= 6 spaces per person (VDS) = 25 sf per person
  • 8-bunk Barracks (2 dTon = 100 sf)= 3 spaces per person (VDS) = 12.5 sf per person

Even within the traditional framework of the rules, it is trivially simple to add items to allow new options for historic conditions.

... but it makes more sense to me to finish a design with the rules as written before adding lots of new options that may or may not be important.
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