Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > General Traveller Discussions > Imperial Research Station

Imperial Research Station A forum for discussing technology and related topics for use in the Traveller Universe

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old January 27th, 2019, 09:53 PM
wellis wellis is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Walnut
Posts: 366
Gallery : 0
wellis Citizen
Default

Do you think computers should still weigh less and take up less space aboard starships though, even if they have vacuum tubes in them, thanks to advances in manufacturing and technology?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old January 28th, 2019, 05:58 AM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,365
Gallery : 56
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
I understand that vacuum tube computers are much better at handling radiation, and that the Mig-25 Foxbat's electronics were all vacuum tube. That is all I will say about it.
I'm aware of that bit of tech, but don't recall the source. And not just the MiG-25... the Soviets figured upon a tac-nuke war, and kept planes in the inventory that wouldn't be grounded because of it.

It was publicly available data in the late 1990's, IIRC. Heck, it's mentioned as such on wikipedia...

Oh, and it should be MiG, not Mig - it's for Mikoyan-Gurevich
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old January 28th, 2019, 08:36 AM
coliver988's Avatar
coliver988 coliver988 is offline
Baron
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Asheville
Posts: 1,535
Gallery : 103
Visit coliver988's Blog
coliver988 Citizen+coliver988 Citizen+coliver988 Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
I don't think the computer is one stand alone device, rather it is the sum total of all of the computerised control systems of a spaceship or starship.
I have to agree with the original author & Mike. We're not just talking about the computer per se, but enough backup and resiliency to maintain reliability under extreme conditions, calculate jump parameters of which we've no idea how complicated that can be (as complicated as the plot requires ). It is also access to the system, ergonomic controls, and a lot of supporting gear.

And if you think Traveller computers are big - check out the ones in Star Trek. You could almost fit a Scout Courier into the one on the Enterprise (it is several decks and has to have a counter weight to balance it).

Sure - a 4TB drive can fit in the palm of your hand. A minor variance in power and there it goes. For decades I've actually assumed virtually unlimited memory (back in the day I had an everything watch that preceded cell phones, but had complete holographic systems. Basically a very fancy Dick Tracy watch. This was mid-80s, when I was, in fact, using punch cards for assembly programming on an IBM 360. Last class to do so, but I do remember the JCL (job control language) cards that had to be loaded before your program got loaded)

Somewhere in the original article I think the author also postulated the computer was actually a series of computers for redundancy. I like that idea. Not sure I'd trust the jump to a PC (well, it will calculate it, but it will take about 12 years to get the calculation to about 100 diameters out. If you are okay with being in the same system we can have that for you in a few days....)
__________________
Mostly lurking about...CT is still my favorite with T5 as a neat tool box to plunder.


Duke of The Solomani RimLANGELOS A4249A6-FLangelos Write Up AlphaTrane / Glisten 2038
Baron, IpkurIpkur C564543-9Ipkur Write Up AlphaRomar / Glisten 2140
Knight of the Third Imperium [x2]Rhylanor A434934-FCyan / Trojan Reach 2102
Knight of the Third ImperiumIkuna E000410-AKryslion / Trojan Reach 2002
MCG For Conspicuous GallantryThe Assault On AlellSelshor / Trojan Reach 1402
Travellers Aid Society 2798Dudid B510526-9Blog - mix of OTU and MTUhttp://traveller-ct.blogspot.com/
Pilots Guide To D'Arlee QuadrantTraveller Github spacehttps://github.com/COliver988/Traveller
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old January 28th, 2019, 06:47 PM
whartung whartung is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,531
Gallery : 0
whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+
Default

The last mainframe I was involved in replacing was for a warehouse company in 1992-93.

Punch cards, room filling monster. The cut off date was very important because that was the day support would be stopped -- and support would not be coming back.

It was replaced with a pizza box Sun workstation and a 25 port serial concentrator.

They were very excited.

I've also replaced more than my share of refrigerator/washer/dryer combo sized computers with small towers and tiny drive array.

I've also dragged around 1/4 rack sized "small" computers crammed in to a cargo hold of a commuter plane.

I have no problem with Traveller computer sizes because their computing problems are not my computer problems.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old January 28th, 2019, 09:09 PM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,365
Gallery : 56
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

To give an idea about "commercial applications"...

An elementary school I worked at about 2002-2008, built in 1998 or so...

30 classrooms (not all used as such), library, gym, music room, computer lab, 5 special use classrooms, 6 individual offices, 5 room main office. Main classrooms all served 5 computers on 8 available ports, plus 1 or 2 phones sharing ports. A 35 machine lab, 7 computers in the library proper, 5 extra computers in each of the 4 kindergarden rooms, 5× 1000-B-T RJ 45 to wi-fi routers, plus a pair of 40 machine mobile labs. 6 laser printers, 1 color laser printer. Roughly 500 students.

The switch room was 3x6m, with 2 banks of switches , double sided, and massive throughput for datastream (I am aware that 50+ simultaneous 480p streams was possible... because I've done it.) Also, one rack was closed circuit coax boosting hubs for the CCTV. Each classroom had roughly 1 cubic meter of data/telecom, as did the specual use rooms. Battery backup was included on the racks for the telecom multiplexer, but NOT for the data system.

So, roughly (35 classroom)+(5 for the lab)+(5 for the two mobile labs)+(5 printers)+(4 for office, music, and library). cubic meters of devices, 36 cubic meters of data and telecom switching, and a few dozen kilometers of wiring... individual 100-B-T lines to each port. 8 ports per classroom. Ends of the halls tend to be about 50m, total, from the switch room

So probably 60 cubic meters overall of computing & telecom, not counting seating space for the computers. Since then, i am aware they added IP-driven smartboards - 1 per classroom, 0.3 m each...

Adding in the video equipment .5 cubic meters per room for televisions, on closed circuit with DVD & VHS, in every room but the gym and MPR... another 20 cubic meters of Video Equipment, plus the wiring for that (low impedance coax)...

Standard classrooms are about 10x12 meters in that building, and ceilings throughout are dropped to 3m, with 1m to 2m above the drop ceiling.

So, that's a lot of AV/TC/Data network. the building is roughly 1100 to 1200 Displacement tons, with 6 tons of AV/Electronics, not counting operator space.

That's without a central miniframe.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old January 28th, 2019, 10:03 PM
timerover51's Avatar
timerover51 timerover51 is online now
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,422
Gallery : 4
Visit timerover51's Blog
timerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

It looks like I am odd man out, as usual. However, I would like to point out that the IBM 1401 that I learned on in 1968-69 occupied a room of roughly 25 by 25 feet with its various components. It had less computing power and storage than the Mac IISI that I bought in November of 1990, which had the largest hard drive we could get at 80 MegaBytes, and cost $3200, without monitor or printer. My cell phone has 500 times the storage and more computing power than the first Mac that I owned, along with a tiny keyboard that drives me nuts. The iPad that I bought for my wife for Christmas has even more power, and a nice size keyboard, which folds up into a case of 9 inches by 9 inches and less than an inch thick.

I have seen computers shrink to a degree that makes some of the earlier 1990s science fiction seem hopelessly out of date. Remember as well that the initial computations for Hohman Transfer Orbits were done using a slide rule in the early 1920s. The Atomic Bomb was designed with slide rules. I will continue to hold the view that the Traveller computers are far too large and expensive, and will be making them smaller in my version of the Cepheus Engine Rules. They will also be cheaper. I will be catching the players with operating costs rather than capital costs to soak up their credits/dollars/stellars.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Sept. 6 Blog Entry-Trade Planets-El Paso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old January 28th, 2019, 11:06 PM
BlackBat242 BlackBat242 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: limbo
Posts: 2,971
Gallery : 0
BlackBat242 Citizen+BlackBat242 Citizen+BlackBat242 Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Remember as well that the initial computations for Hohman Transfer Orbits were done using a slide rule in the early 1920s. The Atomic Bomb was designed with slide rules.
And how many days/weeks with how many people operating slide rules did it take to calculate those things.

CT has a single Navigator calculating a Jump in less than an hour, just himself & the computer.
__________________
"If there are Gods, they do not help, and Justice belongs to the strong; but know that all things done before the naked stars are remembered." Klingon proverb
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old January 29th, 2019, 11:05 AM
kilemall kilemall is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,686
Gallery : 0
kilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizen
Default

I was unhappy with the CT computer rules, when I was playing with them, in the 1980s when I was working on said mainframes.


Moore's Law was already clear and the TL progression annoyed me no end.


So I had rules for virtual machines (yes that wasn't invented recently, first trick of IBM before a proper OS actually), exponential power increases per TL, rules for analysis complexity and time it took, etc. etc.


The complexity rules from Gurps Cyberpunk and Space Opera were helpful too.



Nowadays I don't worry about it. Especially given the damage sinks computers are in CT ship combat proper, the computers are clearly overengineered and/or spread all over rather then one room/cabinet, and tying them to the sensors helps cover the costs and justification for the extreme differences in commercial starship vs. military/research capability.


Nowadays I spend a lot more time with EM bands then modeling computing.
__________________
YUMV- Your Universe May Vary.
YOMD- Your Opinion May Differ.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old January 29th, 2019, 05:04 PM
whartung whartung is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,531
Gallery : 0
whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
My cell phone has 500 times the storage and more computing power than the first Mac that I owned, along with a tiny keyboard that drives me nuts.
Yet it does less.

There's more to computing than raw CPU power.

My iPhone is a marvel. From its fluid gestures, on board image correction, the "AI Chip" doing 600 BILLION operations per second just so it can recognize that it's me trying to turn it on.

My phone made me a "movie" from the photos stored on it. It was a montage of stills and video of my cats. Remarkable since my photos are not part of the cloud, I don't store any of it online. So, I know that my phone didn't just go an upload my photos to Apple where acre feet of servers plodded on it to make me a kitty cat movie. The phone figured all that out on it's lonesome during downtime while just sitting on my desk.

But, from a utility point of view, it doesn't do as much as my desktop does. With it's large screen, big keyboard, the drive array, etc. I'm certainly not typing this post on it.

So, computing utility is not necessarily tied to the size of the microchip doing the work. There's all sorts of other stuff potentially involved.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old January 29th, 2019, 05:44 PM
timerover51's Avatar
timerover51 timerover51 is online now
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,422
Gallery : 4
Visit timerover51's Blog
timerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizentimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

As I am more than a bit tired of getting piled on, I will not post in this thread again. I have expressed my views and gotten hammered for it.

Edit Note: What all of you who are arguing for large computers are saying is that after 5000 more years of development, the computer of the Far Future will resemble those of the late 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s in size, bulkiness, and cost.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Sept. 6 Blog Entry-Trade Planets-El Paso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.

Last edited by timerover51; January 29th, 2019 at 06:23 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Computers/Cyberpunk 'Problem' in Traveller. Ref00000 In My Traveller Universe 99 May 12th, 2014 05:55 PM
Computers!!!! shadowdragon The Fleet 47 April 14th, 2008 09:58 AM
Designed computers Vs. Ships Computers Norinn T20 - Traveller for the D20 System 1 May 30th, 2004 11:05 PM
Computers TNE/CT Villien Traveller: The New Era 16 October 22nd, 2003 01:02 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.