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  #21  
Old March 22nd, 2014, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
By TL9 there will be electrically fired rounds aimed by the gun's on board computer augmented sight. The gun operator designates a target and the gun fires itself when its onboard computer calculates the gun is pointing in the correct direction taking into account range, weather conditions, local gravity etc.

A TL9+ soldier may have as much difficulty firing over iron sights as Aramis' example of black powder weapons.
And when all that fanny crap fails? Goes out of calibration? Knocked out of alinement? Sighting system destroyed in combat?

BWT I agree with you on the difficulty to hit in Combat.

In Vietnam the US fired 4 million rounds for each "confirmed" kill... (No longer have the book but the statistic came from On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society - LT. COL. DAVE GROSSMAN, U.S. Army (Ret.)) Director, Warrior Science Group, www.killology.com: Member, American Board for Certification in Homeland Security; Member, American College of Forensic Examiners Institute

Col. Grossman is a former West Point psychology professor, Professor of Military Science, and an Army Ranger who has combined his experiences to become the founder of a new field of scientific endeavor, which has been termed “killology.” In this new field Col. Grossman has made revolutionary new contributions to our understanding of killing in war, the psychological costs of war, the root causes of the current "virus" of violent crime that is raging around the world, and the process of healing the victims of violence, in war and peace.
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  #22  
Old March 22nd, 2014, 07:53 PM
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5. And, on that note, I am not sure I am convinced Gun Combat needs splitting between energy and slug. In a high technology society, might it not be assumed that if you can shoot with an assault rifle, you will be just as capable with a laser rifle?
Two points in favor of keeping slug and energy separate.

First, look at it from the other direction. Someone raised on energy weapons is going to look at a slug thrower as an alien experience. Suddenly they have to account for wind and ballistics, while the definition of soft cover changes quite a bit. It is akin to asking a modern youth to be proficient in a WWII Wireless Transmitter just because he uses a cell phone.

Second, HE weapons include the Plasma and Fusion MPs, and use power feeds instead of discrete slugs. As such their care and feeding are different. The Gun Combat skills are not *just* combat skills, but also represent operational knowledge, maintenance, and repair. The HE and laser weapons have a completely different set of processes, potential field and calibration issues, and repair processes.
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 08:17 PM
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asking a modern youth to be proficient in a WWII Wireless Transmitter just because he uses a cell phone.
hmm, might be interesting to find an old rotary phone with no display or buttons and see how long it takes the grandkids to discover how to 'dial' it...
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  #24  
Old March 22nd, 2014, 08:39 PM
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And when all that fanny crap fails? Goes out of calibration? Knocked out of alinement? Sighting system destroyed in combat?
You go back to pointing the business end in the general direction of the enemy and hope they keep their heads down - pretty much as it is now.

Most if not all rpgs get gun combat from the hollywood school of special effects, combat reports such as those you quote give quite a different story.
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 09:02 PM
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You go back to pointing the business end in the general direction of the enemy and hope they keep their heads down - pretty much as it is now.

Most if not all rpgs get gun combat from the hollywood school of special effects, combat reports such as those you quote give quite a different story.
Yeah, but I'm pig headed and like simple. I do agree that in a close firefight, nobody is aiming, at least those who plan to live through it. Before that, in a planed shot, I want my iron sights as a backup.

Hollywood ever noticed how the bad guys with auto-rifles sub-machine guns etc, and supposed experts, can't hit anything? But, the guy with the snubnosed .38 kills at 100 plus yards all the time...
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  #26  
Old March 22nd, 2014, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
By TL9 there will be electrically fired rounds aimed by the gun's on board computer augmented sight. The gun operator designates a target and the gun fires itself when its onboard computer calculates the gun is pointing in the correct direction taking into account range, weather conditions, local gravity etc.
Note that these are already accounted for in the MgT Core Rulebook. Computers can be integrated into weapons (including slug-throwers) which can include expert and/or intellect programs to do just what is being described above.

(See Weapon Options Section: Erik's Custom Gun example, p.102 and Intelligent Weapon, p.103 [although it is listed as TL11 base]).
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  #27  
Old March 23rd, 2014, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by aramis View Post
I've gotten to fire a rather wide variety of weapons - no lasers, but I've fired 20 different models of pistol; one machine pistol (in .22LR); one SMG (Uzi); two dozen different rifles including 2 battle rifles (M1 and SKS), 3 assault rifles (M16, AK47, and a demilled HK bullpup); 4 shotguns (including an Atchison full auto); and a couple machineguns (M60)...

Pistols use physically different postures for effective aimed fire than rifles.
SMG's use a physically different posture than either, because a proper rifle technique won't fit, and pistol technique isn't terribly effective; the use of fire "from the hip" is a whole different kind of fire, and certainly justifies a different skill.

Shotguns use different techniques as well, because of the recoil, the lack of rifling, the use of shot rather than slug.

Firing the Atchison was unpleasant - it didn't knock me over - but it did physically rotate me. My prior experience with shotguns and rifles was of limited use. Single shot, it would have been much like the Mosberg, but rocking and rolling, it was unlike the

SMG and shorter Assault Rifles, especially bullpuped ones, have a lot more commonalities to each other than to battle rifles and hunting rifles, let alone the really big rifles. The short grip, propensity for fire from the "hip", use of burst fire... all point to a third skill.

Shotguns with stocks fire much as any rifle, except for the ballistics. Shotguns without stocks, however, are a unique set of challenges. (Soaking up a 4" magnum entirely through the arm can be painful if one doesn't know how.)

Firing a bolt action is a little different from firing a semi-auto or autofire rifle - but not such as affects your chances to hit. Only in as much as it affects your volume of fire.

Really, it should be 5 discrete firearms skills:
Pistol
SMG & shorter Assault rifles
Long Rifles
Support Weapons (tripod/pintle MG's)
Shotguns

TL4-5 muzzle loaders probably should be separate skills, as well, for pisol and rifle. I qualed expert on the M16 first try in basic. (I came away with unspent rounds - I hit two targets with one shot twice using the late 80's pop-target range qual at Dix.) But I couldn't hit a haybale reliably at 50m with a blackpowder rifled musket. (I couldn't get the loading even, so my ballistics were funky).
My personal weapons experience pretty well matches up with Aramis's.

Weapons I have fired for qualification include M1911A1 Autopistol, M-2 50 cal machine gun, M-85 50 cal machine gun, M-240 7.62 mm machine gun, M-69 grenade launcher, and the M-16 rifle/M-203 grenade launcher combo-meal. Weapons fired for fun and profit include the Ithaca Model 37, M-1 Garand, a nameless 30 cal bolt action rifle fired at Boy Scout camp, and S/W 38 cal revolver.

I have found that firing the Autopistol and the revolver differed only in greater muzzle climb in the revolver.

Firing the M-16 and the M-1 worked pretty much the same as the nameless 30 cal bolt action rifle when on single shot, more rapid fire from the garand and M-16 were very similar when you compensate for the caliber difference.

The M-3 grease gun required a completely different set up from wither the pistols or rifles for distance firing, Short range stuff the "shoot from the hip" fire hose method works just fine.

The 50 cals all worked about the same, the M 240 was easier than a 50 but harder than the M-16 shoulder fired on rocknroll. Shotguns required different work depending on whether you used shot or slug. The grenade launchers required a better understanding of ballistic trajectories due to their relative slow flight characteristics.
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  #28  
Old March 23rd, 2014, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by pendragonman View Post
The 50 cals all worked about the same, the M 240 was easier than a 50 but harder than the M-16 shoulder fired on rocknroll. Shotguns required different work depending on whether you used shot or slug. The grenade launchers required a better understanding of ballistic trajectories due to their relative slow flight characteristics.
Oh, yeah, I forgot about the GL. The M203 is just totally alien to riflery. I'm told that the behive rounds are pretty much like firing a 1ga shotgun, but I've only ever fired training rounds.
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  #29  
Old March 23rd, 2014, 02:37 AM
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Oh, yeah, I forgot about the GL. The M203 is just totally alien to riflery. I'm told that the behive rounds are pretty much like firing a 1ga shotgun, but I've only ever fired training rounds.
Yep. Totally alien to riflery. Should definitely be a separate specialty/skill.

Even with the ballistic drop over long distance rifles are way more direct fire. GL firing is like hitting a pop fly riflery is way more line drive.
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  #30  
Old March 23rd, 2014, 04:03 AM
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Default I guess I'll chime in as well...

I will add to the general sense "Listen to Aramis (& Pendragonman)" - what they said with a couple of comments of my own. My own experience is mostly handguns these days, but I also made the point of asking my spouse (two combat tours, plus an Armorer certification) and a old buddy and Traveller player (prior service Marine, now re-enlisted as National Guard).

For the level of granularity that Traveller (all the 2d6 versions at least) have operated, Gun Combat probably needs to be broken out into

Handgun (Pistols and Revolvers)
SMG (Relatively short barreled, pistol caliber, and high rates of fire)
Rifle (generally long barreled, high caliber, and variable rates of fire)
Autoweapon (For the Personally Carried Squad Support Weapons - long barrels, high caliber, very high rates of fire - this would also include Automatic Shotguns)

These are four basic and fundamentally different weapon types with different styles of firing beyond the basics (stance, eye's open, breath control, trigger control, and general "weapons" discipline). My own experience and talking with the aforementioned folks, the idea that shotgun is a different skill is "traditional Traveller" is well and good, but I'm not sure that the fundamentals of actual use are different from regular rifles (again, especially when we're talking about the granularity of 2d6 Traveller). MegaTraveller tried to break things into Rifleman and Combat Rifleman (the latter to cover automatic rifles, as well as regular rifles, etc) but this always seemed a bit odd to have this one oddball skill like that. While there are real differences between single-shot, semi-automatic, burst, and fully automatic fire I'm not sure if it really matters, or rather, couldn't be handled via some other modifier for the unfamiliar. My prior-service military types pointed out that a fundamentally good marksman picked up the "combat rifleman" skills pretty quickly and that the real struggle was to teach people with no firearms experience the fundamentals (at which point, they also picked up the "combat rifleman" details relatively quickly).

Traditionally, Laser Weapons were included in Gun Combat and I really don't see any problem in including them. Same with Neural Weapons. While the principles may be fundamentally different the idea that "the basics" (see above) are the same across weapons is something I could get behind. Besides, while they may not have recoil, for all we know they have some similar jarring effect that functions the same from a distraction standpoint - flash/heat from the laser, bizzaro nerve tingles and pinpoint headaches fro the neural weapons by way of a couple of possibilities. It is certainly possible to create an "energy weapon" skill with the specialties of "Laser" and " Neural" (and perhaps "Disintegrator" for the MgT high tech weapons). For what I've been seeing Mongoose doing, that probably makes the most sense.

I'm agnostic on the idea of Archaic Firearms being included within Gun Combat as a specialty or being it own skill. I could see it either way, but I would honestly probably include it in regular Gun Combat for simplicities sake.

Plasma and Fusion Guns probably deserve their own skill (perhaps hearken back to the old "High Energy Weapons" and give the two specialties), and things like heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, mortars, field artillery etc. all belong under "Heavy Weapons" each with their own specialty. While it might rankle a bit to include a vehicle mounted plasma gun under the same skill as a under-barrel grenade launcher, this also prevents military trained folks from having to build up a huge range of 0-level skills simply to cover the range of basic training that they received. I suppose to could break heavy weapons into two different skills, "Heavy Weapons" for the "multiple man-portable" weapons used by weapon squads (along with man-portable grenade and missile systems) and something like an "earthbound Gunnery" skill with multiple specialties to cover all of the various vehicle mounted (or sized) weapons (field artillery, tank guns, gunship pods, aircraft missiles, etc).

Ok, it's late, hopefully my rambling made some sense. :-)

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