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  #711  
Old September 17th, 2013, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sabredog View Post
That one shot thing happens all the time in LEO gun fights. More often than not the cop will shoot the bad guy once. One round. And then the fight will be over. When we had that happen at my agency I asked the guy why and it was because he said what went through his head was that the threat fell down so he stopped. It's probably more complicated than that but we did teach again and again to "stop the threat", not "kill the threat". And the same thing happened in simulated shooting with simunition. Really weird.

On the other hand we also taught a two-shot "minimum response" on the range. Shoot the threat twice at a minimum but that always devolved into two-shots then re-assess.

Two in the body - one in the head we taught to do in case the other guy had armor or was on drugs.
I can concur with how people react when they actually shoot some one. Once they (the shooter) knows that they have hit someone they will usually stop unless training has kicked in or they are a bit bent in the mind.

It is one of the reasons that they have so many people in firing squads. If all of them have bullets some will not actually aim or not aim to kill. They found that during some studies if they only gave 1 individual a loaded rifle and told the group that only one of them had a loaded rifle and the rest had blanks, that they would all aim to kill thinking that they only had the blank. (they know this because they also gave them all loaded rifles and all the bullets hit the target.)

Now, I know that in military (or at least when I serve and where I served) that we were trained to shoot until we knew they were dead. Unless you went to sniper school. Every target shot was shot until it either did not shoot back, dropped down (obviously dead) or completely disappeared from view. Then if were using a handgun we were taught +1.
Even if your target dropped, you put one more round into them.

On a deeper level, the first item that I address with anyone and everyone that thinks that they want a firearm to protect themselves. Can You Actually Kill Someone?
I do not ask them lightly. I tell them that deciding to own a firearm for defense means, must mean and will mean, that you are ready to kill another human. Period.
There can be no hesitation, you pull out a firearm, you must be and are going to kill with it. A firearm is not something to be used to intimidate, show force or anything else other than to kill another living thing (human, animal, etc).
I get all kinds of; yeah, I can, or I am sure I can if my family is threatened, if it is my life or theirs, I am going to live, etc. Thank god the vast majority of people never have to find out the truth of their thinking.

Truth is the majority of people do not and can not actually kill/hurt another person (not counting drunk or in anger). Even in playing paint ball, a majority of people that I have personally observed have problems the first few time actually shooting another person. I would often have them shoot me (at a distance) to get use to hitting a person before I would let them go play.

The biggest rarely spoken about (but hinted at in some movies and books) is when a shooter (military) individual starts to like to shoot others. I will not go into details or try to explain the various reasons that this happens, but not all of them become psycho. Some actually enjoy the 'sport' or have become so good at it, that they like the challenge, power it brings taking another human's (or animal's) life.

Another thing that does happen in real life with a few that the movies make up to be magical and surreal is the killer look. The look in a person's eye that tells the other person that yes, this individual has no problem at the thought or action to kill you. It is real, it is not superhuman or a special power. It is not something that can truly be faked unless the target really believes everything they see in the movies.

I have personally seen bad individuals back down from an individual who had that look. Bullies do not normally back down from that look, but others who are 'bad' but not a bully, usually recognize that look. And that look is not always from another 'bad guy'.

I have seen that look scare the crap out of normal humans when they realize that this individual can kill and will kill and not think a second more about taking that person's life.

A few of the S.E.A.L.S. that I have met have this look. Most can turn it on and off. Only met 2 that it was always on. One of them was a bit overtly crazy and over the top. But most of the SEALS were humans who learned how and when to turn it on and go to war.

Sorry about going way into an slightly (majority) off topic post. I am at one of those feel good states between medicine and pain, before I fall back to sleep again.

Morning was good, day dragged down to not so good and late even was fine until about an hour ago. I hate taking meds to deal with issues that other meds caused.
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  #712  
Old September 17th, 2013, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by sabredog View Post
My first inclination was to just have her shoot the cockpit out with the guys in it, but then I remembered that A) I didn't know what the things was using for fuel or if the plane would explode because of that (if the fuel was in the wings or from shrapnel), or what might have been inside especially after your mention of someone maybe (though I thought that was a long shot) having some AA weapons.....B) I didn't think we really needed to kill them - yet - and nobody would take off with a launch overhead blocking them they couldn't outrun and was armed.....;and C) Donoma was the one who pointed out we might not want to treat the locals too bloodthirstily because we want to come back some day.

Shooting out the left rotor was only a last resort and Hampton would have at least wanted to know he should have ducked really low before the shot.

But next time.....remember, she just got hired and is still on her 90 day probation. Her health insurance hasn't even kicked in yet as part of her generous employee benefits package.
Heh. I actually thought of just dropping down until I was *just* above the aircraft (like 1m). No laser fire needed, just turn off the drive if need be. But, I didn't think of that until after I had decided to fire on the fan. Given some actual gunnery skill, she would have focused the fire on just the interior of the fan (one of the things those cowlings do is prevent blades that have busted from zinging outside the engine).

The other crazy thing she was thinking of - again, if she had some actual gunnery skill - was the idea of modulating the laser into the visible light range, and lowering the power, then shining it into the cockpit to blind the pilot. Not really a good solution since there are way too many moving parts and too many places the referee might say "uh, no."



EDIT: There, guys, I think I have it back the way it was before I accidentally edited instead of quoting. SB
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Last edited by SpaceBadger; September 20th, 2013 at 09:37 AM..
  #713  
Old September 17th, 2013, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown View Post
Heh. I actually thought of just dropping down until I was *just* above the aircraft (like 1m). No laser fire needed, just turn off the drive if need be. But, I didn't think of that until after I had decided to fire on the fan. Given some actual gunnery skill, she would have focused the fire on just the interior of the fan (one of the things those cowlings do is prevent blades that have busted from zinging outside the engine).

The other crazy thing she was thinking of - again, if she had some actual gunnery skill - was the idea of modulating the laser into the visible light range, and lowering the power, then shining it into the cockpit to blind the pilot. Not really a good solution since there are way too many moving parts and too many places the referee might say "uh, no."
I assumed squashing the vtol would be too risky for the launch. IMTU the launch would be scuffed but its superdense hull would prevent damage from a carbonfibre rotorcraft. But...t'aint my TU. And the fuel / power source problem again.

Yeah, KISS generally works the must have been one really scared or brave pilot to have ignored a ship's beam laser across his tiny bow.

Next time we can try the landing on top enough to make the craft creak maneuver and see what happens. I might be useful to know.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 08:38 AM
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Worked out WAY different!
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Old September 17th, 2013, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveChase View Post
Another thing that does happen in real life with a few that the movies make up to be magical and surreal is the killer look. The look in a person's eye that tells the other person that yes, this individual has no problem at the thought or action to kill you. It is real, it is not superhuman or a special power. It is not something that can truly be faked unless the target really believes everything they see in the movies.

I have personally seen bad individuals back down from an individual who had that look. Bullies do not normally back down from that look, but others who are 'bad' but not a bully, usually recognize that look. And that look is not always from another 'bad guy'.

I have seen that look scare the crap out of normal humans when they realize that this individual can kill and will kill and not think a second more about taking that person's life.
Thirty-some years ago, I was involved with gangs and I remember that look. I always likened it to the eyes of a shark ... a sort of dead, soulless stare that sends a shiver through you. They were the ones who died young and violently.

I am so glad those days are long behind me now ...
... what might have been, but for the grace of God. [shiver]
  #716  
Old September 17th, 2013, 12:12 PM
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Next time we can try the landing on top enough to make the craft creak maneuver and see what happens.
"Next time"?!?!?
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Old September 17th, 2013, 12:34 PM
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[OOC: Donoma's first action is posted (edit of the placeholder). Now it will take some interaction.
I will post in response, but no guarantees on rapidity of response.]
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Old September 17th, 2013, 12:44 PM
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"Next time"?!?!?
Just another day of loading cargo.
Welcome to the 'Fortunate Son'.
  #719  
Old September 17th, 2013, 03:12 PM
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"Next time"?!?!?
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Just another day of loading cargo.
Welcome to the 'Fortunate Son'.
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  #720  
Old September 17th, 2013, 04:17 PM
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Now, I know that in military (or at least when I serve and where I served) that we were trained to shoot until we knew they were dead.
From the 80's on, in the U.S. Army, we were conditioned to shoot the person until they went down. Training that is conditioned is going to trump anything that is just said. The vast majority of our ranges were pop-up ranges; target appears in my lane, I make the shot, and it goes down. If it doesn't, then I shoot again if I've got the rounds. Well it's down, I've got other targets to watch. Grossman in On Killing gives this wonderful treatment:
http://www.amazon.com/On-Killing-Psy.../dp/0316040932

I was really impressed with his work. One basic conclusion that he brings home is that the basic human aversion to killing is much stronger than most of us realize. We can be conditioned to delay this aversion until after the trigger has been pulled, but in most cases (he says about 85%) it never goes away. Distance, including technological, social, and physical, do a lot to overcoming it. He also concludes that a lot of PTSD is not primarily from the stress of the personal danger of combat, though that is real, but being caught between in the dilemma of not wanting to let one's buddies down, and still having the aversion to the killing that supporting them requires.

Anyway, he does very good work on the aversion to killing.
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