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  #41  
Old September 22nd, 2017, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
At a wild guess they failed to make the barrage system work without armour protecting against mesons.

Without armour mesons are way too good, with armour (and screens etc) the mesons are not good enough.

That bays are the primary defence against fighters is another fail for the barrage system...
I guess their failure in this sense was in the design system, where Meson Bays are too easy to install (as their power requirements are too easy to achieve) and the low power of the Meson Screens against them.

See that a 10000 tons ship with level 6 Power Plant (that would ammount just 500 dtons) may well have up to 60 meson bays. Even if they are 60 x 50 ton such bays (so amounting 3000 dtons), they can be devastating (as shown above), be it against fighters or capital ships, and it would still have over 60% of its tonnage (even accounting for the PP fuel) for other things (spinal, Drives, crew quartiers, armore, etc..).

For what I've read, MgT2E includes the power needed for each mount, and I guess Mesons will need quite a lot of it, so probably fixing this (as it happened in CT and MT, where bays were also limited to 1/1000 tons).

As for the power of the Screens, IDK only if you have lots of them they are really useful, as a FC/5 software and skill 3 are enough to nullify 4 layers of them, and if you add the dice (5 for those small bays), even the 6 maximum screen layers are of little use (unless you use the Screens to Full order, that makes them more powerful).

Again, to compare it with CT or MT, the screens were there quite useful against Meson Bays...
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  #42  
Old September 23rd, 2017, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
For what I've read, MgT2E includes the power needed for each mount, and I guess Mesons will need quite a lot of it, so probably fixing this (as it happened in CT and MT, where bays were also limited to 1/1000 tons).
MgT2 models power usage, but power is very cheap so not much of a limitation. Bays only need a single hardpoint.

But meson bays are banned from the OTU following T5. They are still in the book, just vaguely under optional tech, just like quad turrets.


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
As for the power of the Screens, IDK only if you have lots of them they are really useful, ...
With the barrage system defences means taking less damage, so always worthwhile, if perhaps not economical. Since screens are almost fixed price they are nearly always worth it for larger ships.

If a single screens reduces barrage damage from, say, 500% to 300% it's probably worth it...


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Again, to compare it with CT or MT, the screens were there quite useful against Meson Bays...
In CT (& MT) meson bay were rather useless since they basically couldn't hit small ships, and couldn't penetrate even minimal screens.
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  #43  
Old September 23rd, 2017, 05:20 AM
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For the record - meson bays are not banned by T5.
Meson bays are a BCS scale weapon system. They are not included in T5 because T5 only details ACS.
It's like saying there are no spinal mounts in the 3I because they were not in LBB:2
If you use this logic then T5 has banned all ships above 2400t.

Nor have meson bays disappeared from the 3I - see ships in MgT HG2e.

Since I have interrupted the tennis match - the 5 pages of discussion on this thread are a fascinating read.
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  #44  
Old September 23rd, 2017, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
With the barrage system defences means taking less damage, so always worthwhile, if perhaps not economical. Since screens are almost fixed price they are nearly always worth it for larger ships.

If a single screens reduces barrage damage from, say, 500% to 300% it's probably worth it...
This again depends on it the dice are always added as a positive DM or just neutralize defenses. In the former case, yes, they are worth, as you say, in the latter one, the first 2 meson screens are useless (unless Streens to full order is used), and the first 4 are useful only against 50 dton bays.

The hipotetical ship I told above would have 60 x 50 dton bays. Assuming standard configuration, that would mean 48 firing (240 dice). Yes, I guess the difference from 720 to 1200 structure hits (I understand on a single section) is significant for larger ships, but for ships up to 200000 tons even 720 structure hits in a single section are a killing blow....

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Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
In CT (& MT) meson bay were rather useless since they basically couldn't hit small ships, and couldn't penetrate even minimal screens.
That's what I meant on the comparation. What was a rather useless (at least against same TL ships) wapon in CT/MT has become definitive in MgT. While changes in paradigm may change this, IMHO this one is too severe, but, as many things, this may be a matter of taste.

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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
For the record - meson bays are not banned by T5.
Meson bays are a BCS scale weapon system. They are not included in T5 because T5 only details ACS.
It's like saying there are no spinal mounts in the 3I because they were not in LBB:2
If you use this logic then T5 has banned all ships above 2400t.

Nor have meson bays disappeared from the 3I - see ships in MgT HG2e.
TY for the explanation. Not having access to neither MgT2E nor T5, I must trust your (both of you) words on this (and, after all, I have no reason not to).

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Since I have interrupted the tennis match - the 5 pages of discussion on this thread are a fascinating read.
You're right it has became a tennis match, but that was not the intent, and your (or anyone other's) opinión is welcome.

I guess we all can learn a lot from those discussions (at least I talk for myself).
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  #45  
Old September 23rd, 2017, 07:55 AM
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Sorry I do not intend the term tennis match in a derogatory way - I think this thread is a great example of how people can have a civilized discussion, which is due credit to both yourself and Another Dilbert.
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  #46  
Old September 23rd, 2017, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
For the record - meson bays are not banned by T5.
Meson bays are a BCS scale weapon system. ...
OK, that was heavily interpreted.

Let's see if I can make it clearer:
MgT2 places meson bays in limbo; they are confined to the High Technology chapter together with Warp Drives.
According to forum posts by Mongoose that is because they are not available in the OTU, on order from higher authority.
I'm just assuming that that "higher authority" is also publishing T5, especially since some other synchronisation with T5 occurred in MgT2.
Meson bays are so unavailable in the Imperium that several Imperial warships in HG use them.

So, I'm assuming that current thinking on any potential T5 BCS system will not have meson bays, unless possibly if the ship is really large?
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Old September 23rd, 2017, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
This again depends on it the dice are always added as a positive DM or just neutralize defenses.
Agreed, but that is only saying that if we ignore defences, then defences have no value...


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
The hipotetical ship I told above would have 60 x 50 dton bays. Assuming standard configuration, that would mean 48 firing (240 dice). Yes, I guess the difference from 720 to 1200 structure hits (I understand on a single section) is significant for larger ships, but for ships up to 200000 tons even 720 structure hits in a single section are a killing blow....
I agree that in this case a screen or two would be pointless.

If we make meson the dominating weapon, warships should really have max screens and a reasonable configuration.

Barrages divide their damage between two sections, 200 000 Dt ships have 800 points per section (depending on TL), and you can only attack with 70-80% of the weapons (depending on configuration), so a ~75 000 Dt ship should survive the first hit.


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
That's what I meant on the comparation. What was a rather useless (at least against same TL ships) wapon in CT/MT has become definitive in MgT. While changes in paradigm may change this, IMHO this one is too severe, but, as many things, this may be a matter of taste.
All new editions change things. We can just accept it, and adjust to the new reality.
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  #48  
Old September 23rd, 2017, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Agreed, but that is only saying that if we ignore defences, then defences have no value...
Unless they are stronguer than the capacity to overcome them (again, as always)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Barrages divide their damage between two sections, 200 000 Dt ships have 800 points per section (depending on TL), and you can only attack with 70-80% of the weapons (depending on configuration), so a ~75 000 Dt ship should survive the first hit.
OK, but I already assumed the configuration only allowed 80% of the bays to fire (otherwise, the base damage would have been 300, not 240).

Even so, you're right. A 75000 dton ships could sustain a barrage from this 6000 dton ship...

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Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
All new editions change things. We can just accept it, and adjust to the new reality.
Sure, it's either this or just ighnore the new version and keep with the old (as I did with TNE). But I like MgT1E, despite all, and sooner or latter I guess I'll try MgT2E.
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  #49  
Old September 23rd, 2017, 01:04 PM
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Maybe someone calculated that a broadside of mesons was more effective than a spinal mounted pinprick.

Though I don't miss them, I just want consistency, which means no meson weapon system smaller than a spinal mount across the board.
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  #50  
Old September 23rd, 2017, 01:17 PM
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You mean apart from the meson bay armed ships of the IN detailed in MgT HG2e?

Meson bays on capital ships in the 3I are a thing under HG79/80, MT, GT, TNE, T4 and MgT HG2e.
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