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In My Traveller Universe Detail what parts of Traveller you do (or don't) use in your campaign.

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  #11  
Old October 23rd, 2003, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by daryen:
And the Shudusham Accords dealt with robotics, cybernetics, and artificial intelligences. The Sudusham Concords dealt with weaponry carried by robots.
They're also not enacted at the Imperial level. Many individual worlds have enacted legislation based on the Shuddusam Concords, which implies that some haven't.


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  #12  
Old October 23rd, 2003, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
And the Shudusham Accords dealt with robotics, cybernetics, and artificial intelligences. The Sudusham Concords dealt with weaponry carried by robots.
They're also not enacted at the Imperial level. Many individual worlds have enacted legislation based on the Shuddusam Concords, which implies that some haven't.
Hans
</font>[/QUOTE]But, they are enacted at the "Imperial Level". The Imperial Level governs (IMTU) the space between worlds. Extrality zones, Starports and the like, as well. So though the Empire has not forced this upon member worlds (not their style or the nature of the beast), they have undoubtedly Implemented this in 'the space between'.
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  #13  
Old October 27th, 2003, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
And the Shudusham Accords dealt with robotics, cybernetics, and artificial intelligences. The Sudusham Concords dealt with weaponry carried by robots.
They're also not enacted at the Imperial level. Many individual worlds have enacted legislation based on the Shuddusam Concords, which implies that some haven't.
Hans
</font>[/QUOTE]But, they are enacted at the "Imperial Level". The Imperial Level governs (IMTU) the space between worlds. Extrality zones, Starports and the like, as well. So though the Empire has not forced this upon member worlds (not their style or the nature of the beast), they have undoubtedly Implemented this in 'the space between'.
</font>[/QUOTE]I wasn't talking about your Traveller Universe, I was talking about the OTU.

"The Concords have no legal force in the Third Imperium , but many worlds have adopted similar or identical standards using the Concords as a template, and most robots produced commercially in the Imperium are designed with these restrictions in mind." [Library Data]


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  #14  
Old October 29th, 2003, 08:37 AM
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IMTU, the Imperium is rather enlightened in this regard. Of course the Imperium most resembles a feudal system, but that doesn't mean it does not recognize the social and economic benefits that freedom brings.

While there is no "Bill of Rights" in the Imperium, for the most part IMTU the Imperial forces act as if there were. Citizens cannot be deprived of property without cause and/or compensation, freedom of speech and religion are recognized, the right to keep and bear arms is understood as the best deterrent against lawlessness, and so forth.

Of course, where Imperial security is threatened or martial law exists, these "rights" evaporate rather quickly. But such is the nature of monarchy. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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Old October 29th, 2003, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaladorn:
I find Hecateus' theory interesting, but not backed up by fact. Most of the Imperial Nobility has never risked life nor limb and it is probably debatable who, other than themselves, they may have provided 'service' to.
of course only the thinnest patina of service is required for a weasely noble to come out ahead.
...just ask our Glorious Leader Dubya Bush.
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  #16  
Old November 9th, 2003, 05:31 AM
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Citizenship IMTU -
i) Only pureblood humans(Solomani) can ever be imperial citizens.
ii) Any human can serve the imperium for four or more years and be granted citizenship (Or have their noble rank increased by 1 grade)
iii) Any child of a ranked noble has their rank reduced by one (ie the children of a Baron all become knights)
iv) As well as the upgrade by service (so you can get to the same rank as your parent) you can get extra noble ranks for deeds of daring do


Citizenship is important for the following:-
i) Every ship needs an owner of record - this must be an imperial citizen (ie Solomani) they have a registered will which is probated in imperial court before their death and the owner is responsible for the ship. This leads to a ship which has a "front man" human but is actually owned/run by a human breed/non-human/corporation
ii) Only imperial citizens have any rights in imperial space!
iii) Only imperial citizens can sign legal contracts which are enforced by the imperial police.
iv) there is a large underground "sophonts rights" movement
v) Terrorism is rife - but tends to be limited to starports (it is hard to get off-planet access)
vi) Children of citizens are covered by their parents rights until they hit adulthood (18) by which time they need to either join up or find a planet which will accept them.

I like it as a universe because it seems reasonably stable however has lots of in-built inequities as player hooks.

for example
- one of the human PCs was adopted by heavy worlders it doesn;t seem fair that their "parents" don;t have the same rights that they do
- one of the PCs failled the medical to get into the navy, bought someone elses ID and is traveling under a false name. When they are discovered, all their contracts become invalid and the ship that they own (ie the PCs ship) will revert to the origional owner!

Lots of Laughs all round
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  #17  
Old November 9th, 2003, 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by kaladorn:

LEW blathered: "Long answer: No. The precise nature of the Third Imperium's government is a hotly debated topic. However, it is best envisioned as an association of planetary governments and not an association of individual citizens. Regardless of the CT supplement of that name, actual 'Imperial citizens' are either relatively few in number or completely non-existant."

kaladorn sagely replied: "At the moment, with no supporting citations, I'd call this an unsupported conclusion."


Gentlemen,

Travelling for business certainly cuts into my Traveller time! I missed this when it first was posted. (Tomb - I also still owe you that re-write!)

The supporting citations for my suppositions regarding Imperial citizenship are littered throughout OTU canon, not in essays on Imperial government or the existence of an Imperial 'bill of rights' but in the myriads of adventures, amber zones, and planetary write-ups. For whatever reasons, the Third Imperium tolerates the existence of absolutely wretched member worlds. The population of those worlds may be 'Imperial citizens' but that designation does not prevent their masters from swimming in the peoples' blood or setting their thrones on a mountain of skulls. There seem to be very few benefits; as in 'none', attached to the 'Imperial citizenship' label.

There are many examples of this to varying degrees, but one will suffice here. The DGP/MT write-up of the Deneb Sector included a world, whose name escapes me, ruled by the 'Ward of Vision'. In a ripoff of a ST:TOS episode, the 'Ward' and his cronies lived amidst hi-tech splendor in the healthy uplands while the bulk of the population slaved and starved through shortened, lo-tech lives in the deadly lowland mines. The Ward prohibited all off-world contact and kept most of the planet laboring in a near Stone Age existence that would have made Hobbes wince. It is suggested that the Ward and his system are tolerated because he "makes the trains run on time".

Later on, TNE used this abattoir to illustrate Norris' 'Representational Reforms'. Volunteers in the thousands snuck onto the planet, avoided the Ward's security services, and slowly crafted a 'liberation theology' with which to rouse the masses. While hundreds of these volunteers were martyred, the rebellion they engendered overthrew the Ward and his system. The planet, rechristened 'Lucifer', is held out as a model in the Regency. It is selected as one of the Boost-to-TL16 project worlds and produces more than its share of the volunteer 'Representational Reform' agent provocateurs that beaver away on the few remaining planetary charnal houses the 3I's policies left to the Regency.

While the Ward and his world are an extreme example, a cursory search of OTU canon will reveal any number of planetary systems with hellish governments and societies; hellish in the eyes of we 21st Century Westerners that is. The laissez faire nature of the Third Imperium; perhaps the only way 11,000 worlds and 11,000 cultures can be welded into a single polity, allows member worlds to do nearly anything as long as the Imperium itself is not threatened. This idea is not new and was debated on the TML as recently as 2 years ago. During that thread, Mr. Ayer's created his satiric masterpiece, the corporate slavers of MYMINES Ltd., to illustrate the concept. MYMINES carefully observes every jot and tittle regarding the known and presumed 'rights' of Imperial 'citizens' while legally operating a series of slave labor camps throughout the Spinward Marches.

In our 21st Century Western mindset the label 'citizen' is frieghted with various assumptions, the chief being the assumption of certain 'rights' being intergral to the label. That assumption is a fairly recent one in human history and is one that is not held even held worldwide today. There are citizens and then there are citizens. One cannot make the argument that the legal and cultural meaning of 'citizen' in the USA or EU is in any way equivalent to the legal and cultural meaning of 'citizen' in Saudia Arabia, China, or Somalia. Similarly, we should not infer 21st Century Western assumptions regarding the meaning of 'citizen' or the idea of 'government' to the 57th Century, self-described fuedal, Third Imperium.


Sincerely,
Larsen
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  #18  
Old November 10th, 2003, 02:35 AM
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Larsen,

I heard and agree with most of the above. The Empire tolerates all manner of differing viewpoints, etc. within its nominal borders. These include nasty dictatorships, exploitive autocracies, etc.

But, that does not mean that some or all of these are not considered 'Imperial Citizens'. There are good questions, as you point out, about what meaning this *really* has (and if in fact there are multiple classes of Imperial Citizen, as their may well be).

Furthermore, there may be a significant number of transient or interplanetary members of Imperial Civilization. It was the characterization of this group as small in number that I wondered about. I'm not sure this is the case. There may, in fact, be a very large number of Imperial Citizens. But if you are not a noble, Imperial Citizenship and CR 1.50 will get you a cup of TJ's coffee juice....
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Old November 10th, 2003, 07:54 PM
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Thank you all for the wonderful posts. This just supports my idea of the low berths being a guerilla warfare and oppressed masses way of trying to get a better deal. There are politics in low berth, and this gives me ideas for games.
What about a customs patrol that stops the pc's ship and demands that all the low berth passengers be awakened? Hilarity ensues.
Thanks again and Does anyone have a copy of the Corporate Masters of MYMINES? I would love to read it if it is archived or published elsewhere on the web.
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Old November 10th, 2003, 09:20 PM
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Father Fletch wrote:

"This just supports my idea of the low berths being a guerilla warfare and oppressed masses way of trying to get a better deal. There are politics in low berth, and this gives me ideas for games."


Mr. Fletch,

Getting across the starport's extrality line in order to 'freeze out' in that low berth and escape may be problematic. Of course, the word 'problematic' is just another term meaning 'adventure seed'!

"Thanks again and Does anyone have a copy of the Corporate Masters of MYMINES? I would love to read it if it is archived or published elsewhere on the web."

The 'Mailing Lists' link at the top of the page will take you to the TML. You need not subscribe to the TML to read the archives. If memory serves, Mr. Ayer's delightful MYMINES creation appeared during the first half of 2001. The corporation figured prominently in the (in)famous 'Brawl at the Haul'; a spasm of silliness in which many TMLers posted 'in charecter' detailing their actions in a bar fight that escalated into a paroxysm of 'freelance urban renewal' that rivaled that of Beirut in the 1980s. MYMINES appeared towards the end of the episode and whisked away two of its 'employees', the same two individuals whose actions had turned a bar fight into a city wrecking riot in the first place.

Have fun perusing the TML Archives. Look for post entitled 'MYMINES' or posts from Mark Ayers. You can search archived months by poster or title.


Sincerely,
Larsen
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