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In My Traveller Universe Detail what parts of Traveller you do (or don't) use in your campaign.

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Old October 24th, 2018, 11:48 PM
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Default Revising Turokan's Rim Expedition to be more OTU-compatible

Joshua Bell of TravellerMap has been able to recover the ~200 sectors of data from Turokan's Rim Expedition; they can be found online on the TravellerMap GitHub database. However, this data is considered to not really be compatible with the OTU because there are too many large, high-tech states along the route, and there are also some sectors/worlds at the rimward end which reference other copyrighted properties like Star Wars and Star Trek. Arguably, the first complaint could also apply to Clifford Linehan's Core Route data, but that is considered more OTU-compatible due to the ZCR being a canonical concept and (I assume?) the data being less extremely weird. So, perhaps the Core Route data could also use some revision, but that isn't what I wanted to talk about here.

I understand the problems with Turokan's data, but I still like the concept of the Rim Expedition and Turokan's sector names, so I hope we can find a way to make them more OTU-compatible. In particular, a few years ago, when I thought Turokan's data had been permanently lost, I had my Orion OB1 Association maps overlap the Rim Expedition slightly, and thought up an in-universe concept for the Rim Expedition.

Specifically, I sort of combined Turokan's concept with Operation Perseus, a canonical rimward exploration by the Solomani which was never mapped. In this concept/setting, the Rim Expedition was undertaken by the Solomani-dominated Second Imperium in a similar way to how the Zhodani Consulate has organised the Core Expeditions; the character of Turokan could then be considered a major leader of these Second Imperium expeditions. When the Second Imperium fell, the Solomani colonies were spared most of the ensuing chaos and became self-sufficient.

In the present day (M1105), these former Rim Expedition colonies now form a polity known as the Rim Reach. Instead of starting at Core and going through Hiver space, the route instead starts in Rim Reach Sector (rimward of the Solomani Confederation and adjacent to a sector I previously worked on, Amderstun Sector), where the main body of the Rim Reach polity lies, and goes trailward for a few sectors before rejoining the diagonal rimtrailward path of Turokan's sectors. Similarly to the Zhodani Core Route, there are small Rim Reach colonies along the length of the route, although from the first rift onward there are rarely more than a few such worlds per sector. In the section before the first rift, there would also be some former-Solomani human pocket empires; I would also preserve a few of the non-human polities along the route, although not nearly as many as in Turokan's original data, so large part of the route would simply be winding through barren/unexplored sectors (similar to the "barren arm" section of the Core Route sectors).

In general, I would keep the approximate stellar density/dotmaps, since these were calculated/generated by Clifford Linehan in discussion with Marc Miller (that's what the comments in Turokan's data suggest, anyway, and I know this was the case for the Core Route), with the exception of the small area where the Orion OB1 Association overlaps the route, since I like the idea of combining these concepts/settings. (The Rim Reach polity could also be linked to the M'norr Republic polity from the Orion OB1 Association, though I'll need to think about that more - the M'norr Republic could be another state founded by early Solomani explorers located to spinward/rimward of the Orion OB1 Association, or it could be a polity unrelated to Charted Space. Another concept I have, the Qcuxl Confederation located to spinward of Alagoric's Empty Stars region could also be linked to it somehow... but I'm getting off topic here.) In fact, with the exception of that overlap area we could perhaps keep/reuse Turokan's dotmaps entirely, since that would make new sector work easier.

Anyway, these are just the thoughts I have about it right now; I could have some more specific ideas for states after looking at individual sectors in detail later. (In fact, I've already had some ideas...)

So, what do people think of these ideas? Could Turokan's Rim Expedition data be made more OTU-compatible?
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Old October 25th, 2018, 01:11 AM
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So, what do people think of these ideas? Could Turokan's Rim Expedition data be made more OTU-compatible?
You are talking about around 200 Sectors. That is far larger than the entire Imperium, along with all of the alien areas. This was all supposed to be done during the Second Imperium, with at best Jump-3. And you want this to be more OTU compatible. I cannot think of anything that would be more lethal to the OTU than making this more compatible. Why would anyone pay any attention to such a small and minor polity as what would become the 3rd Imperium when all of these other sectors were explored and available?

The Spinward Marches are one sector, the entire 3rd Imperium is around 25 sectors, the Solomani Sphere is maybe 10 Sectors, if you include chunks of some as entire sectors. You are talking something five times the size of the 3rd Imperium and the Solomani area. Why would anyone pay any attention to such a minor coreward block of stars?

The Long Night? Never happened.

The Rebellion and Virus? What are those?

Cleon? Who is he?

Terra? The legendary home of Man, probably never existed. Strictly a legend. A fairy tale for children.

The Zhodani, Vargr, Aslan, Darrians, K'kree, and assorted other aliens. Never heard of them.
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Old October 25th, 2018, 04:06 AM
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Your point about Charted Space doesn't entirely hold up, because the Zhodani Core Expeditions do exist in the OTU, and they haven't been "lethal to the OTU" by making Charted Space insignificant, despite the fact that by the end of the Third Core Expedition during the Rule of Man (Second Imperium) the Zhodani had already explored 37 sectors coreward of Zhdant. Also, 200 sectors is not "far larger than the Imperium along with all of the alien areas": the standard rectangle of Charted Space includes 12x18 = 216 sectors, and the Zhodani Core Route an additional 173. And let's not forget, these Rim Expedition sectors are all in a very long line and so not nearly as easy to colonise/commute/become part of standard Charted Space as, say, a rectangle like Charted Space.

Solomani launching at least one expedition to the rim is canon (Perseus Project/Operation Perseus). Besides, Solomani colonisation stopping just two sectors rimward of Terra as the classic maps suggest is pretty inexplicable - it only exists for the out-of-universe reason of the first Atlas map needing to fit on a single page. So, in general, I think you're exaggerating the "would destroy Charted Space" point.

You do make one valid point, though, in that there was a technological limitation of Jump-3 present at the time of the Rule of Man, and that would make exploration of the galactic rift after the arm that contains Charted Space more difficult (but not impossible). Hence, we could say the initial colonisation of the Rim Reach was only the area until the first rift (encompassing around 40 sectors), with further exploration occurring later - and I did already suggest that most of the Solomani colonists would live in the region before the first rift anyway, with the rest of the Expedition being lightly colonised similarly to the Zhodani Core Route.

So, in conclusion, I think some of your criticisms were valid but others overlooked key parts of my proposal/concept and were overly hostile.
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Old October 25th, 2018, 04:52 AM
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How is Perseus canon? It isn't mentioned in the CT Alien module...
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Old October 25th, 2018, 05:23 AM
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Is it not? It's mentioned in numerous different places on the Traveller Wiki, and not attached to a specific non-canon source like Turokan's site or my site or other fan contributors like Alagoric or Pakkrat, so I assumed it came from one of the canon sources. It's even mentioned in the major events timeline of the Solomani Confederation, and as far as I know every other entry in that table is canonical...

If it's non-canon, than who created it?
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Old October 25th, 2018, 05:42 AM
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The Solomani Perseus Project rimward expeditions are mentioned in the DGP MT supplement Solomani and Aslan.
They began in 5568AD with 17 base ships being sent out. The most recent ship to return is the Iouo in 5624 having travelled as far as the fringe of the Auriga arm 3000pc away

Three of the ships have not returned yet, including the largest called Home.
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Old October 25th, 2018, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 77topaz View Post
Is it not? It's mentioned in numerous different places on the Traveller Wiki, and not attached to a specific non-canon source like Turokan's site or my site or other fan contributors like Alagoric or Pakkrat, so I assumed it came from one of the canon sources. It's even mentioned in the major events timeline of the Solomani Confederation, and as far as I know every other entry in that table is canonical...

If it's non-canon, than who created it?

I believe it comes from MT/DGP: Solomani & Aslan.

EDIT: Looks like Mike beat me to the post while I was typing.
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Old October 29th, 2018, 04:27 PM
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I'm not a fan of taking strictly fan-generated material and making it OTU. I appreciate the work that went into it, and it definitely deserves a place to be preserved, but the route as such should not become part of the OTU. I am OK with keeping some of it and using it for Perseus, but be aware that since Perseus came from a DGP project it isn't really canonical (though, I do use the DGP stuff IMTU, and wish that a final agreement could be reached to get the IP to Marc).

Cheers,

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Old October 29th, 2018, 06:32 PM
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I'm not a fan of taking strictly fan-generated material and making it OTU. I appreciate the work that went into it, and it definitely deserves a place to be preserved, but the route as such should not become part of the OTU. I am OK with keeping some of it and using it for Perseus, but be aware that since Perseus came from a DGP project it isn't really canonical (though, I do use the DGP stuff IMTU, and wish that a final agreement could be reached to get the IP to Marc).

Cheers,

Baron Ovka
Actually, per Marc, DGP is canon until and unless overwritten. And it's to be checked against for new OTU material. After all, DGP was the design staff for even the GDW MT materials.
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Old October 29th, 2018, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77topaz View Post
Is it not? It's mentioned in numerous different places on the Traveller Wiki,
The wiki is a fan-managed resource, with many contributors. Not all of the material in an article is necessarily canon, even if the article is marked so, even if the original article was.

Put it another way: the wiki is an unreliable witness.

I suppose you could say that ALL printed Traveller material is an unreliable witness.


...with the exception of Traveller5; GURPS: Sword Worlds; and Mongoose: Deneb Sector. And the Library Data and sophont profiles in the MT Imperial Encyclopedia.
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