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  #11  
Old January 29th, 2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
Royalty verse nobility: Do I have that right? And if so, does the nobility entry need to be reworked a little?
Imperial Lines Magazine issue #7 helped to clarify things. It's worth purchasing. If I recall correctly, Jim Kundert was a big part of that.

The associated wiki articles have been updated recently. I don't think that they are 100% in compliant with #7 yet.

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  #12  
Old January 30th, 2019, 02:01 AM
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Eh, I think it's actually one of those YTU things, and YMMV. That is after perusing the thread it strikes me as a "flavor to taste" thing. To me it's a universe detail I was curious about, but in terms of adventuring … unless you're a big super-serious space opera type whose PCs and NPCs hob nob with the ultra rich, powerful and famous … it really doesn't have w whole lot of bearing on any adventure.

I doubt the monarch or archduke is going to be interested in the arrest of any one pirate clan or cartel, or any interstellar level crime unless a loved one is involved.

John Mason, IISS pilot and team leader revisits the pyramids in shadows, he and his team find nothing, and so he transmits his findings directly to the archduke. The Archduke's chamberlain knows about a plot, screens it, and then pushes the info towards the Archduke and his staff.

but now I'm just rambling. I guess unless there's some real serious plot for the players to unthread and uncover, I guess it doesn't matter much.

But thanks for the replies. Especially since Strepheron never had any children.
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  #13  
Old January 30th, 2019, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
I doubt the monarch or archduke is going to be interested in the arrest of any one pirate clan or cartel, or any interstellar level crime unless a loved one is involved.
It depends.

Even though Leadership is, perhaps, not directly involved with a manhunt, doesn't mean they're disinterested. Playing up the capture for political points alone is worthwhile. "See, Citizens, the Administration is Working(tm)."

Consider the movie "Clear and Present Danger" where the President authorizes national resources to, essentially, avenge the murder of a friend under the color of the "War on Drugs".

There have been many examples of recent history where leadership has leveraged small time affairs for national purposes.
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  #14  
Old January 30th, 2019, 07:46 PM
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Well, I suppose.

I guess my take is that Royalty has a rank and status above nobility, except where a senior duke who is a master of many other lesser dukes is involved. Because of his presumed experience he holds rank above the sons and daughters of the monarchs, but apparently that's not the case with the 3I Imperial (royal) family, and supposedly never has been.

And I guess to me that's a quirk of Strepheron's Imperium, and it would seem to make things more complex than they need to be, because that means if anything happens to Strepheron, and it did, things get complicated. And boy, did they ever get complicated with the Rebellion because no one had enough "archduke" nor "princely" clout, no matter what title Strepheron gave them before bit the dust, to step forward and tell the 3I, the moot and everyone else that he/she/it was minding the store.

In retrospect, that was the whole premise behind Mega-Traveller which I didn't get until just now, in spite of reading all the source books.

Interesting.

It brings up stuff like … what if he had a clone or a sister or something. Was Norris the only archduke anywhere? Dulinor? Margaret? That lizard dude or that Vargr guy? Originally I was just curious about noble and royal ranks, now I'm interested in the MT-verse and social status.
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  #15  
Old January 31st, 2019, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
Well, I suppose.

I guess my take is that Royalty has a rank and status above nobility, except where a senior duke who is a master of many other lesser dukes is involved. Because of his presumed experience he holds rank above the sons and daughters of the monarchs, but apparently that's not the case with the 3I Imperial (royal) family, and supposedly never has been.

And I guess to me that's a quirk of Strepheron's Imperium, and it would seem to make things more complex than they need to be, because that means if anything happens to Strepheron, and it did, things get complicated. And boy, did they ever get complicated with the Rebellion because no one had enough "archduke" nor "princely" clout, no matter what title Strepheron gave them before bit the dust, to step forward and tell the 3I, the moot and everyone else that he/she/it was minding the store.

In retrospect, that was the whole premise behind Mega-Traveller which I didn't get until just now, in spite of reading all the source books.

Interesting.

It brings up stuff like … what if he had a clone or a sister or something. Was Norris the only archduke anywhere? Dulinor? Margaret? That lizard dude or that Vargr guy? Originally I was just curious about noble and royal ranks, now I'm interested in the MT-verse and social status.
6 Archdukes are mentioned by name in MT sources that I recall
  1. Norris - self promoted, but the promotion letter really was in the mail
  2. Brzk - a Vargr, and an Archduke - Archduke of Antares
  3. Dulinor of Illelish,
  4. Tranian, Archduke of Gateway
  5. Adair, Archduke of Sol
  6. Ishuggi, Archduke of Vland

It's mentioned that there is no Archduke for Sylea - Strephon himself held Sylea's archduchy personally - but other Emperors might not have.
Norris is the first Deneb Archduke in some time.

Duke Craig of Diabei is the senior duke of the sector, and leads the sector into rebellion, along with part of Reaver's Deep.

Duchess Margaret is the great-granddaughter of Emperor Gavin. There are some references in other materials as Grand Duchess - which is an implication that she's a royal - but in the MT GDW materials, she's just listed as Duchess, with notation that she's a potential heir. (but not until Lucan is dead.)

The Archdukes are not part of the royal family, save Strephon.

All the above is found in Rebellion Sourcebook or Imperial Encyclopedia.
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  #16  
Old January 31st, 2019, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
But thanks for the replies. Especially since Strepheron never had any children.
Strephon and Iolanthe had Ciencia Iphegenia Alkhalikoi (Grand Princess of the Imperium). in this title, "Grand" is the Imperial titular designation of the heir to the Iridium Throne.

After they both were assassinated, the TNE timeline tells us he had Avery via fertilisation of stored eggs from Iolanthe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
I guess my take is that Royalty has a rank and status above nobility, except where a senior duke who is a master of many other lesser dukes is involved.
Royalty means "in the line of succession" which is limited to the Imperial Family.

My understanding of Archdukes in Traveller is that they are not. Nor are any other nobility.

Historically, if a royal family is wiped out, the search begins for an obscure heir. If none is found, the senior nobles - dukes, usually - begin squabbling over the kingdom. Eventually one is chosen or more likely defeats all the others, and is declared (or declares themselves) to be king.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
And boy, did they ever get complicated with the Rebellion because no one had enough "archduke" nor "princely" clout, no matter what title Strepheron gave them before bit the dust, to step forward and tell the 3I, the moot and everyone else that he/she/it was minding the store.
Hence the squabbling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
It brings up stuff like … what if he had a clone or a sister or something. Was Norris the only archduke anywhere? Dulinor? Margaret? That lizard dude or that Vargr guy? Originally I was just curious about noble and royal ranks, now I'm interested in the MT-verse and social status.
There was an Archduke for each of the seven Domains.

EDIT: Heh. Wil beat me to it by about 12 minutes. ;-)
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  #17  
Old January 31st, 2019, 06:21 AM
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There was an Archduke for each of the seven Domains.

EDIT: Heh. Wil beat me to it by about 12 minutes. ;-)
Only if you count Strephon.

And, in M1100, Deneb is vacant.
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Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
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  #18  
Old January 31st, 2019, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
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. . .
Norris is the first Deneb Archduke in some time.. . .
Unless there has been a retcon (or details in the intervening period of 650-1100 Imperial that have not been revealed previously), Norris is the first Archduke of Deneb ever. The Domain of Deneb was established by Empress Jacqueline in 589, the same year as the outbreak of the 1st Frontier War, which concluded with the assassination of Jacqueline by a Grand Admiral of Baronial rank from the Domain of Deneb (leading to the 1st Civil War & Barracks Emperors). After the 1st & 2nd Frontier Wars, and the Civil War were concluded, Emperors were reluctant to appoint new Archdukes with broad powers who might threaten the Imperial Throne, and existing Archducal lines were allowed to go vacant when their title-holders failed to produce an heir (or were otherwise removed from office).

Quote:
. . .Duchess Margaret is the great-granddaughter of Emperor Gavin. There are some references in other materials as Grand Duchess - which is an implication that she's a royal - but in the MT GDW materials, she's just listed as Duchess, with notation that she's a potential heir. (but not until Lucan is dead.) . . .
I don't recall the term Grand Duchess having been mentioned in relation to her anywhere (if you have a reference, I would be interested in seeing it). However, I do recall that:
  1. She was apparently the Sector Duchess
  2. In TNE:1248 background material, she was referred to as an Archduchess (post-1130 Imperial) for the first time ever that I recall. Since Delphi is a part of the Domain of Sylea, it raises the question as to how she came by the title (other than by self-appointment, or as a part of her claim to the Imperial Title and associated archducal dignities).
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  #19  
Old January 31st, 2019, 12:54 PM
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Unless MWM has a retcon I am unaware of Norris was the first ever archduke of Deneb. When Arrival Vengeance made it to the real Strephon he found it amusing that Norris had promoted himself and then ratified it... oops, just read whulorigan's post, and he makes the same point

The chief difference between classical royalty and Imperial nobility is that royalty relied on divine authority whereas Imperial nobility is purely temporal. The Imperial Emperor doesn't seek divine recognition of his/her status, and the various nobles entitled by the Emperor similarly rely on Imperial authority rather than divine blessing.

Referring to the Imperial family as royalty isn't strictly speaking correct, but it certainly fits since they are the highest ranking noble family.
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Old January 31st, 2019, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
6 Archdukes are mentioned by name in MT sources that I recall
  1. Norris - self promoted, but the promotion letter really was in the mail
  2. Brzk - a Vargr, and an Archduke - Archduke of Antares
  3. Dulinor of Illelish,
  4. Tranian, Archduke of Gateway
  5. Adair, Archduke of Sol
  6. Ishuggi, Archduke of Vland
There is a whole bushel load of other archdukes mentioned throughout literature of various canonicity. Including some archduke named Hostman.

It's all here:

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Archduke

If you asked me how much of it was the alternate storyline "Imperium Eternal", from canon publications, from fanzines, and whatnot...

...I could not tell you.

I have been compiling these things so that we eventually could make something from it. Or that it would empower Marc to do with it what he would. Some of it was from the research that Hans did. RIP.

Each domain page has an archduke listing as well. The pacification campaigns aren't even close to being well documented.

And if Jim is reading this, we want the next nobility article in the future Imperial Lines #8 when you are ready to share it.

Hope that helps.

Shalom,
M.
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