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  #11  
Old September 1st, 2020, 02:25 PM
Condottiere Condottiere is offline
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If I understand the structure of the Imperium Navy correctly, supposedly each subsector has a numbered fleet, with a corresponding reserve fleet who's ships are occasionally taken out of mothballs to train the reservists, probably as a sort of ready pool to bolster mainline squadrons, and/or replace destroyed ships.

Their immediate command and control seems to pass through the local nobility, perhaps a way to commission their progeny without exposing them to the normal hardships of the Imperium Navy, and giving them an additional proxy for control.

Planetary navies would be more for local security, and perhaps patrolling of nearby empty hexes, since interstellar expansionism is frowned upon.
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  #12  
Old September 1st, 2020, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by vegas View Post
Huh? I think there is pretty strong evidence in B5. For example
Care must be taken not to confuse the generic rules in HG with the actual setting.

In the Third Imperium setting the subsector navy tier is absent - I can find no setting source rather than a generic rulebook

The Third Imperium setting did not use the Traveller rules as written to describe it in every detail. It wasn't until LBB:6 that we have a core rule book that is written specifically for the Third Imperium setting.
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These quotes are then reflected in CharGen where you roll to see which type of navy you enlist in: Imperial, Subsector, or Planetary navy.
Show me an example of a character from the subsector navy in an adventure or supplement.

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If you want to use FFW board game as Traveller canon, probably best to explain how subsector fleets are integrated in the FFW naming convention rather than trying to say they don't exist in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. (For example, subsector fleets take the subsector capital as their name, or they get a number so you cant easily distinguish them from Imperial fleets, or maybe they split up and lead/stiffen the planetary fleets - you choose which approach you like.)
The FFW game is based on the setting and thus describes the setting, rather than the rpg rules which are not always reflected in the setting.
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  #13  
Old September 1st, 2020, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
If I understand the structure of the Imperium Navy correctly, supposedly each subsector has a numbered fleet, with a corresponding reserve fleet who's ships are occasionally taken out of mothballs to train the reservists, probably as a sort of ready pool to bolster mainline squadrons, and/or replace destroyed ships.
That was the MT way of doing things which is not the same as how things were done pre-FFW as detailed in S:9 and FFW.
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Old September 1st, 2020, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
The Third Imperium setting did not use the Traveller rules as written to describe it in every detail. It wasn't until LBB:6 that we have a core rule book that is written specifically for the Third Imperium setting.
B6 is about the setting by B5 isn't? That is convenient to your argument but seems like a special pleading. The "Imperium" in the quotes I mentioned isn't the "Third Imperium" its some other generic imperium? Really?

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Show me an example of a character from the subsector navy in an adventure or supplement.
I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of adventures to try, but I have three retorts: 1) absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, 2) can you show an example of a planetary navy character? mostly just curious, 3) In addition to B5, S9:FS also explicitly references subsector and planetary navies; is that book not describing the setting either? (Seems hard to believe reading the introduction to S9)

EDIT: oops, I missed your reply to condo. So we agree S9 is describing the setting... S9 tells us there are subsector navies just like B5. Case closed? I think so...
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Old September 1st, 2020, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by vegas View Post
S9 tells us there are subsector navies just like B5. Case closed? I think so...

Holy cow, there is a passing reference to subsector navies. Very cool. I didn't realize that was there. Sweet.

Mike's larger point has some merit. There is very little mention of the subsector navies. But S9 does mention them, so that is interesting.

I believe I will take this and run with it.

Really there is enough there (and missing) that a referee could go in either direction. You can do what I am doing and give every Duke a local navy that shows up when convenient and is always causing trouble (or providing assistance). Or you can decide that does not make sense and make the Subsector Navy a a possible small exception, and allow a small force for a few Dukes that very rarely or ever shows up in your campaign.

The beauty of Classic Traveller. The referee's canvas to paint.

Thank you all for you support in my edification of the Imperium.
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  #16  
Old September 1st, 2020, 10:01 PM
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But keep in mind, both FFW and the Rebellion are wartime, not peacetime footings. The Subsector navies during a wartime footing may in fact have been "absorbed" into Reserve units of some sort (perhaps even individual subsector squadrons being assigned to a reserve fleet or fleets and given an Imperial Reserve Fleet number . . .

In the USA, National Guard Troops belong to particular states overseen by the State Governors; but during wartime, they can come under Federal jurisdiction and units can get called up with the Reserves and even see overseas duty in some cases.
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Old September 2nd, 2020, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by vegas View Post
B6 is about the setting by B5 isn't? That is convenient to your argument but seems like a special pleading. The "Imperium" in the quotes I mentioned isn't the "Third Imperium" its some other generic imperium? Really?
Correct - the Imperium of LBB4 and LBB5 is a placeholder, the details of the Third Imperium are slowly revealed through JTAS, Supplements and Adventures. LBB^ Is the first rule book that is written specifically for the Third Imperium setting.
There were two versions of LBB5 - which is correct for the setting?


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I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of adventures to try, but I have three retorts: 1) absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,
Provide evidence that there is a subsector tier whithin the Third Imperium setting, I can provide evidence there is not.
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2) can you show an example of a planetary navy character? mostly just curious,
I will go and check but off the top of my head I can't think of one, but there is evidence of planetary navy ships and squadrons, so there is a planetary navy tier.
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3) In addition to B5, S9:FS also explicitly references subsector and planetary navies; is that book not describing the setting either? (Seems hard to believe reading the introduction to S9)
The introduction for S9 mentions naval bases being use for Imperial fleets and vessels from subsector and planetary navies. It does not say that those are Third Imperial subsector forces, it could mean bases for polities such as the Darrians who have no more than a subsector navy.

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EDIT: oops, I missed your reply to condo. So we agree S9 is describing the setting... S9 tells us there are subsector navies just like B5. Case closed? I think so...
Nope, not closed until you can show an actual tier of subsector forces rather than an easily explainable sentence.

And just to be clear - I originally stated there is very little evidence for subsector navies, I didn't say there was none. I personally include a ducal subsector navy.

Where is the Regina subsector Navy? It isn't mentioned in FFW or JTAS News bulletins set during the war. Why is there no Regina Fleet counter to represent the Regina Subsector Navy ships being collected together when Imperialised?
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  #18  
Old September 2nd, 2020, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
But keep in mind, both FFW and the Rebellion are wartime, not peacetime footings. The Subsector navies during a wartime footing may in fact have been "absorbed" into Reserve units of some sort (perhaps even individual subsector squadrons being assigned to a reserve fleet or fleets and given an Imperial Reserve Fleet number . . .
I agree, since we know planetary navies are Imperialised it would make sense to Imperialise the subsector Navy too, If it were up to me I would make a Regina Fleet counter for FFW.
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  #19  
Old September 2nd, 2020, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Bartleby View Post
Holy cow, there is a passing reference to subsector navies. Very cool. I didn't realize that was there. Sweet.

Mike's larger point has some merit. There is very little mention of the subsector navies. But S9 does mention them, so that is interesting.
Little evidence is a sentence that can be explained as meaning the subsector navies of other client polities.

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I believe I will take this and run with it.

Really there is enough there (and missing) that a referee could go in either direction. You can do what I am doing and give every Duke a local navy that shows up when convenient and is always causing trouble (or providing assistance). Or you can decide that does not make sense and make the Subsector Navy a a possible small exception, and allow a small force for a few Dukes that very rarely or ever shows up in your campaign.

The beauty of Classic Traveller. The referee's canvas to paint.

Thank you all for you support in my edification of the Imperium.
I agree with you, the existence of a subsector navy under the direct control of the subsectot duke opens up a lot more possibilities for shenanigans.

My take on the Third Imperial setting was/is heavily influenced by Dune, and as such rival noble houses are often at odds - sponsoring cross border mercenary operations, inciting trade wars in a rival's subsector, providing letters of marque for said trade wars. A ducal navy along with household troops allow for these frontier idiots to compete with each other - hence the eventual rise to power of a sector duke.

The regular IN only gets involved if the economy of the Imperium is threatened, so as long as the rivals go so far and no further they will not trigger Imperial intervention.
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  #20  
Old September 2nd, 2020, 07:12 AM
Condottiere Condottiere is offline
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While a subsector duke might have nominal command of the subsector/reserve fleet, control probably flows through a Defense bureau.
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