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Classic Traveller Discussion on the granddaddy of them all, Classic Traveller!

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  #21  
Old February 8th, 2020, 12:21 PM
Condottiere Condottiere is offline
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This is probably edition specific.

My take on pop ups is that depopped, the volume is reduced by whatever tonnage was protruding, since my rationale is that you pay for the total tonnage, and not for the half that's currently being occupied by a depopped pop up, turret or otherwise.

A pop up feature after construction would require a recalculation.
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  #22  
Old February 8th, 2020, 12:52 PM
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While T5 it is probably close to what Classic envisions
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  #23  
Old February 8th, 2020, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Not quite, it takes no space inside the hull.


What we know:

1) Turrets takes no space in the hull (LBB2 p15).
2) A gunner can be in the turret (LBB2 p38).
3) Turrets can be decompressed, hence they have space for people (LBB2 p34).

The only conclusion I can make is that turrets take space, but outside the hull. Presumably 1% or so is too little to impact drive performance.


Of course, LBB5 changes all of this...
The ability to be pressurized/depressurized does not imply there is room for a human being. Soda cans and bottles of propane are pressurized and are usually not large enough to hold a human being. I find it to be illogical to say we "know" a turret has space for people because it can be depressurized.

Starting with bombers built towards the end of WWII, turrets have been almost universally remotely operated. They are only large enough to hold the weapon and what is hoped to be an adequate amount of ammunition. This is to allow for the realities of increasingly high altitude operations. Remotely operated, non-human-occupied turrets make even more sense for space vehicles.
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  #24  
Old February 9th, 2020, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThornPlutonius View Post
The ability to be pressurized/depressurized does not imply there is room for a human being. Soda cans and bottles of propane are pressurized and are usually not large enough to hold a human being. I find it to be illogical to say we "know" a turret has space for people because it can be depressurized.
OK, but the rules discuss depressurisation in the context of crew safety and what happens to people in case of explosive depressurisation, see LBB2'81 p33-34.

Without people potentially in them, there would be no need to depressurise turrets, or even ever pressurise them. The other compartments that can be depressurised are clearly places people can be expected to be.


Later, the rules specifically discuss gunners in the turrets:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBB2'81, p38
Gunner interact interfaces the expertise of the gunner in a specific turret to the hit probability of those lasers hitting the target.

Together I would say this means the turrets take some space (that can be pressurised), and can contain a gunner.
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  #25  
Old February 9th, 2020, 08:50 AM
ThornPlutonius ThornPlutonius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
OK, but the rules discuss depressurisation in the context of crew safety and what happens to people in case of explosive depressurisation, see LBB2'81 p33-34.

Without people potentially in them, there would be no need to depressurise turrets, or even ever pressurise them. The other compartments that can be depressurised are clearly places people can be expected to be.


Later, the rules specifically discuss gunners in the turrets:



Together I would say this means the turrets take some space (that can be pressurised), and can contain a gunner.
I choose to read the bit about being "in" a turret to mean in/at its control area. I choose to read the bit about depressurizing a turret to be an error in the text, which interpretation works better with the rules about construction and volume, etc., and with my understanding about "real life" turrets.

Our Traveller Universes clearly are at variance. Blessed be the variance!
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  #26  
Old February 9th, 2020, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThornPlutonius View Post
I choose to read the bit about being "in" a turret to mean in/at its control area. I choose to read the bit about depressurizing a turret to be an error in the text, which interpretation works better with the rules about construction and volume, etc., and with my understanding about "real life" turrets.

Our Traveller Universes clearly are at variance. Blessed be the variance!
Yay for variance! I've always had a difficult time with the idea of putting people physically in the turret, but thought that the pressurization part was access to the interface workings of the turret part outside the hull where the energy/sand/missiles get launched from to the inside of the hull where the fire control and possibly loading mechanisms were.

So the turrets themselves are not pressurized nor manned, the control interface in the ship IS pressurized but can be separately depressurized in the even of enemy fire targeting the turrets. The 1st 2 images from T5 I added a bit ago is what I was thinking, the 3rd with a manned turret is just trying to et to those old WW2 movies where the gunners are sitting in those little bubbles below the plane. Or Star Wars in the Millenial Falcon.
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  #27  
Old February 9th, 2020, 01:27 PM
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The paradigm shifted in nineteen seventy seven, making crewed turrets not only viable, but man(ned)datory(ian)
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  #28  
Old February 9th, 2020, 01:51 PM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThornPlutonius View Post
Blessed be the variance!
Agreed!

And, obviously, IMTU trumps any rules.
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  #29  
Old February 13th, 2020, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
The fact remains that in CT LBB2 a turret pf any capacity of weapon type takes up no. volume.

When designing the hull you designate hardpoints and pay for them - no adding hardpoints at a later time.
More properly, the turret/fire control should be called a casemate or sponson then (think of the 6 pdr gun mountings on the sides of British WWI tanks).

Personally, though, I don't mind allowing a jump drive to operate with a very slight increase in volume, treating a hull at 100% rated as normal and, say, 105% at max before you need a larger jump drive.
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  #30  
Old February 13th, 2020, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon C View Post
More properly, the turret/fire control should be called a casemate or sponson then (think of the 6 pdr gun mountings on the sides of British WWI tanks).
Given Craig’s example turret image in post 22 above, “casemate” would have my vote for the least ambiguous term. (Don’t sponsons stick out from a ship’s side?)
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