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  #31  
Old May 13th, 2016, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
A Z drive produces performance of 2 in a 5000t hull. There is a possible fudge available in that the Z drive in a 4000t hull is performance 3 - so technically a Z drive could produce performance 1 in a 12000t hull, the theoretical fudge limit to drive size.
Definitely doable, though I don't know if GDW thought about this at the time. The implications are fascinating: a lumbering monster ship 10,000 tons big can only move at 1G and Jump-1, but could be bristling with weapons. In fact there are TWO implications from this sort of ship design:

1. As warships they are deadly to tangle with, but easy to escape from.

2. Two worlds 1 hex apart will have these things hauling cargo and passengers between them. Thus worlds 1 hex apart get a distinct advantage in trade. This is a true implication of the application of Proto-Traveller.

Example using T5 ("close enough for government work"):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argulaash Slow Freighter
NOTE: the "V3" drive is equal to the "Z" drive in Book2 parlance.

Using a 12000-ton, TL12 hull, the Argulaash Class Freighter mounts jump drive-V3, maneuver drive-V3, and power plant-V3, giving a performance of jump-1 and 1G acceleration. Fuel tankage supports a 1 parsec jump, at 1200t per parsec, and one month of operations. Attached to the bridge is a Computer Model/1 std. There are 176 staterooms and 50 low berths. Installed weaponry include 10 single-turret Pulse Lasers, 10 single-turret Sandcasters, and 10 single-turret Missiles. Cargo capacity is 8450 tons. The ship has an unstreamlined hull, with scoops, intakes, and bins for frontier refueling.

The ship carries 2 Slow Pinnaces. The ship has 110 crew, and can carry 36 high passengers and 50 standard passengers.
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Last edited by robject; May 13th, 2016 at 03:05 PM..
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  #32  
Old May 13th, 2016, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
The limitation on ship size in LBB2 is due to maximum hull a drive can support and the limitation that multiple drives can not be installed to improve performance (allowed in T5)
A Z drive produces performance of 2 in a 5000t hull.
LBB2 is limited because they ran out of room on the chart and in the book.
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  #33  
Old May 13th, 2016, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by whartung View Post
LBB2 is limited because they ran out of room on the chart and in the book.
Other tables were done on two page spreads; it could have been expanded. Given that they used a linotype machine, which had at least an 8" maximum line width, they could have (as they did with some tables in striker) cast the drive table sideways. Such layout tricks are actually easier in lead than in the early DTP programs...
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  #34  
Old May 13th, 2016, 04:32 PM
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The limitation on ship size in LBB2 is due to maximum hull a drive can support
so, not only is there a minimum drive size of 1 dton, but a maximum size in dtons as well? and no series or parallel gangs? I suppose one could decree that, but it doesn't sit well in the mind.

Quote:
LBB2 is limited because they ran out of room on the chart and in the book.
the lbb page size seems to explain much about ct ....
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  #35  
Old May 13th, 2016, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by flykiller View Post
so, not only is there a minimum drive size of 1 dton, but a maximum size in dtons as well? and no series or parallel gangs? I suppose one could decree that, but it doesn't sit well in the mind.
Actually, minimum drive tonnage varies by type of drive...
Minimum is 4 tons (PP A).
Minimum ship is 5 tons (PP A & MD A)
Minimum starship is 15 tons (PP A, MD A, and JD A)
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  #36  
Old May 13th, 2016, 04:47 PM
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Actually, minimum drive tonnage varies by type of drive...
oh yeah, I was thinking of the lbb5 rule.
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  #37  
Old May 13th, 2016, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flykiller View Post
so, not only is there a minimum drive size of 1 dton, but a maximum size in dtons as well? and no series or parallel gangs? I suppose one could decree that, but it doesn't sit well in the mind.

the lbb page size seems to explain much about ct ....
Leaving aside Book 5 for the moment (since in 1977 there was no Book 5, and from everything I've read, no particular plans for Book 5 when original Traveller was written)...

Given that there is, by definition of the hand-waved J-Drive technology, a limit on Jump capability based on tonnage, is it not possible that there is a limit on what the technology can do?

I understand these notions don't sit well on your mind... but me, limits are awesome, limits make things work. Given that there is this correlation, what is the problem with assuming that at some point J-Drives can't push anymore?
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  #38  
Old May 13th, 2016, 06:58 PM
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I understand these notions don't sit well on your mind... but me, limits are awesome
then I rephrase to "arbitrary limits don't sit well on the mind". and I don't mean just my own.

suppose one "hand-waves" j1. well then, why not "hand-wave" j2? "because I don't want to allow it" doesn't work - players seek work-arounds, adventures are written where j2 is some secret soli experiment to be discovered, some secret space weapon artifact is found floating in an oort cloud, etc. so fine, j2. well then, why not "hand-wave" j3? "because I don't want to allow it" doesn't work. so fine, j3, j4, j5, j6.

now in book 5 we arrive at why not j7? well there is no rule against j7, but it can't be done, because using established rules for jump it's impossible to fit j7 components into any given hull. this limitation is not arbitrary, it's simply a natural consequence of the existing rules.
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  #39  
Old May 13th, 2016, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flykiller View Post
then I rephrase to "arbitrary limits don't sit well on the mind". and I don't mean just my own.

suppose one "hand-waves" j1. well then, why not "hand-wave" j2? "because I don't want to allow it" doesn't work - players seek work-arounds, adventures are written where j2 is some secret soli experiment to be discovered, some secret space weapon artifact is found floating in an oort cloud, etc. so fine, j2. well then, why not "hand-wave" j3? "because I don't want to allow it" doesn't work. so fine, j3, j4, j5, j6.

now in book 5 we arrive at why not j7? well there is no rule against j7, but it can't be done, because using established rules for jump it's impossible to fit j7 components into any given hull. this limitation is not arbitrary, it's simply a natural consequence of the existing rules.
Huh.

I really have no response to this. It seems possible to me that Book 2 posits a technology that can only move a big piece of metal 6 parsecs tops, and is only powerful enough to move such big pieces of metal up to a certain size... at which point the technology taps out.

This doesn't mean other technology (or improved technology) can't be introduced by a Referee as part of his setting, or as an advancement in the setting, or as piece of technology from an alien technology or alien culture that is at odds with the baseline of the Player Character baseline.

1970s RPGs are all about creating a baseline -- and then introducing magic/technology that exceeds that baseline as either an obstacle or reward for the players.

I'm not typing any of that to convince you. I know I won't. Just laying out where I'm coming from. Book 2 says, "This technology that doesn't exist and probably never will? Here's how it works..."

And I'm like, "Cool."
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Last edited by creativehum; May 13th, 2016 at 09:47 PM..
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  #40  
Old May 13th, 2016, 07:15 PM
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One thing I still like and use regularly from Book 2 Starships is the movement systems for ships between worlds and for combat.

I like the former because movement between worlds and to satellites and such occurs frequently in games when you expand a system to include everything. With the main world not being the only thing in the system, movement between worlds becomes important in terms of time for play.

The combat movement system, likewise, is preferable to me as I like the miniatures feel of it versus something entirely abstract. It works well in a small ship / few ships present action which is usually the sort I deal with. It gives the players some options the abstract systems don't like using worlds, satellites, etc., as cover or for gravitational acceleration.
I think that adds a dimension to space combat that gives players some personal control over their ship and what they're going that the abstract systems don't.
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