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Old December 21st, 2013, 11:51 AM
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Default Alien Module (AM) 3 page 44 and 45

Hello all,

In CT AM 3 the adventure provides background on the Gvurrdon Hvaek in the Vargr language of Arrghoun. Pages 44 and 45 provides an Anglic translation with 31 notes.

During the translation Note 17 indicates that 6 ly and Note 24 indicates 7 ly for Vargr starships of Gvurrdon's time period are about equal to Jump 2. The starship of the alien traders per Note 25 was capable of 10 ly or Jump 3.

The story relates that Gvurrdon returned with the traders to the capital world of their empire which took almost a year. The ship entered the boundaries of the alien empire after traveling approximately half of the almost year journey.

Note 29 states "That without more data, it is unclear whether this capital is Zhodani or Vland."

From the information provided in CT AM 6 Solomani the Ziru Sirka employed only starships with J-2 drive. The introduction of the J-3 drive during the Ninth Interstellar War by the Terrans, aka Solomani, tipped the war in their favor and by -2219 ended the Vilani Empire. (CT AM 6 page 5 text and Timeline page 12).

The story in CT AM 3 indicates that Gvurrdon left his home world prior to -2480 and returned with a J-3 starship after -2480 when Knurroe dominated his home world. Per the Integrated Timeline by Donald McKinney and the information on CT AM 3 page 47 the Gvurrdon Hvaek existed from -2700 to -2300.

MegaTraveller (MT) and GURPS Traveller (GT), IIRC, among other sources indicate that the Ziru Sirka froze themselves both in technology and in their expansion of the empire's borders.

Based on the information provided from the two sources I have referenced the Vilani cannot, in my opinion, be considered since they did not have J-3 starship drives.
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Old December 21st, 2013, 02:10 PM
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Hi Tom,

It's a longtime since I read it, and I have not time right now to dig in for it, but, IIRC, the adventure states that this trade post was in fact Zhodani.

Also, taken from Donald McKinney timeline:

Quote:
-2800 c Makarin, a Zhodani trading combine, begins operating in the trailing frontiers of the Zhodani Consulate.
Alien Module 3 - Vargr, GDW, 1984, p. 45.
I'm not sure when did the Zhodani reach J3...
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Old December 21st, 2013, 02:22 PM
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I think Tom's point was that there should be no doubt that at that time a J3 ship couldn't have come from the Vilani side. And presumably a glance at the Encyclopedia Galactica or the AAB library data collection would tell the PCs that the Zhodani did have J3 at that time.

(I'd love to have a timeline that set forth when the various people of Charted Space reached what jump level. I started a thread about that some years ago, but no one showed any interest in discussing it.)


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Old December 21st, 2013, 04:34 PM
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Howdy McPerth,

Yep, it has been awhile since you last stopped by one of my topics with a reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Hi Tom,

It's a longtime since I read it, and I have not time right now to dig in for it, but, IIRC, the adventure states that this trade post was in fact Zhodani.
Yep, it has been awhile since you last stopped by one of my topics with a reply.

You are correct that in the referee material there are a couple of references that the traders where Zhodani. The notes that go with the Anglic translation of Gvurrdon's story on CT Alien Module (AM) 3 pages 44-45 provide the best information.

Quote:
Also, taken from Donald McKinney timeline:

Quote:
-2800 c Makarin, a Zhodani trading combine, begins operating in the trailing frontiers of the Zhodani Consulate.
Alien Module 3 - Vargr, GDW, 1984, p. 45.
CT AM 3 - Vargr Note 26 page 45 states that Makarin operated in the trailing frontiers from -2800 and -1800. The translated text on page 44 indicates that the base was being abandoned when Gvurrdon arrived.

Quote:
I'm not sure when did the Zhodani reach J3...
Per the timeline on page 8 of CT AM 4 the Zhodani built J-1 starship drives in -5,415. Looking at the various star maps available J-1 allowed the Zhodani to cover a lot of territory before needing to improve the jump drive. However, there is little doubt that when the Gvurrdon met the Zhodani they had J-3 drives.

Thanks for the reply.
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Old December 21st, 2013, 04:46 PM
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Guten tag Hans (Hopefully I got the right words for Good afternoon PST),

Quote:
Originally Posted by rancke View Post
I think Tom's point was that there should be no doubt that at that time a J3 ship couldn't have come from the Vilani side. And presumably a glance at the Encyclopedia Galactica or the AAB library data collection would tell the PCs that the Zhodani did have J3 at that time.

(I'd love to have a timeline that set forth when the various people of Charted Space reached what jump level. I started a thread about that some years ago, but no one showed any interest in discussing it.)


Hans
Yes, you summed up my verbose comments nicely.

I'm sorry I missed the topic thread about the timeline for coming up with a timeline when the people of Charted Space went from J-1 to the stages of J-2 through J-6. The only people that gives any information is for the Terrans and that timeline is very vague.

Thanks for the summary and reply.
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Old December 21st, 2013, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post

Note 29 states "That without more data, it is unclear whether this capital is Zhodani or Vland."
Gvurrdon's original account does not have enough information in it to make that call, even if our heroes do now have access to enough information.

Also, much of the Imperial history we can now refer to hadn't been written when AM3 came out. On top of that, Library Data was, at the time, a vast body of knowledge that you simply could not wander through casually. Note the wording in early adventures about accessing Library Data.
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Old December 21st, 2013, 11:38 PM
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Evening GypsyComet,

Another individual I haven't heard from in awhile and I'm very glad to have a reply from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyComet View Post
Gvurrdon's original account does not have enough information in it to make that call, even if our heroes do now have access to enough information.

Also, much of the Imperial history we can now refer to hadn't been written when AM3 came out. On top of that, Library Data was, at the time, a vast body of knowledge that you simply could not wander through casually. Note the wording in early adventures about accessing Library Data.
I can't seem to find the wording about accessing the library data, of course whenever I looking for something for myself the sources always seem to hide them.

Thanks for the reply.
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyComet View Post
Gvurrdon's original account does not have enough information in it to make that call, even if our heroes do now have access to enough information.
Tom's point was that although the text says that our heroes can't make that call, something as simple as checking up on when Zhodani and Vilani reachede J3 would, in fact, enable them to make it.

Quote:
Also, much of the Imperial history we can now refer to hadn't been written when AM3 came out. On top of that, Library Data was, at the time, a vast body of knowledge that you simply could not wander through casually. Note the wording in early adventures about accessing Library Data.
However primitive the library data are assumed to be, they must at least be advanced enough to match dead tree encyclopedias. And something as basic to an interstellar society as its ability to perform jumps has got to be fairly prominently featured in the main article about said society.


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Old December 22nd, 2013, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rancke View Post
Tom's point was that although the text says that our heroes can't make that call, something as simple as checking up on when Zhodani and Vilani reachede J3 would, in fact, enable them to make it.


However primitive the library data are assumed to be, they must at least be advanced enough to match dead tree encyclopedias. And something as basic to an interstellar society as its ability to perform jumps has got to be fairly prominently featured in the main article about said society.


Hans
When did we reliably have the ability to fly Mach 1? The answer varies. Civilians can't still; the military routinely has since the 1960's...

The F-86 could go supersonic, but not reliably. This was proven in 1952 in a borrowed (F-86 variant) Canadair Saber 3. It wasn't designed for supersonic flight.

The 1954 F-104 went straight to a production model of Mach 2+...

So when was the first Mach-1 production fighter?

Was it the F-86 (a 1949 design)? The 1954 F-100?

Or any of the transonic regime non-supersonic fighters?

Sure, it's only a few years for military use. But we still don't have private aviation in the supersonic regime, and corporate civil aviation ceased supersonic operation.

So, if someone comes back with a supersonic light jet, knowing we've had the capability to build them since 1954, can we say for sure he got it here?

By the same token, the "hard dates" given for J-X are probably far from the whole story Does the average person in the 3I have access to even J5 travel? And that's with the 3I having had J5 for a century or more. Would the Zhodani have been selling the J3 drives? Especially to a Vargr? Perhaps they didn't; perhaps they've flat out denied the claim in prior investigations, and he instead stole one and lied.

Perhaps the 3I didn't realize the Zhodani had it then; it's not like Zho Historians are typically amongst the military forces. Or, perhaps they know, but don't want to admit that the Zhos had it.
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Old December 22nd, 2013, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
By the same token, the "hard dates" given for J-X are probably far from the whole story Does the average person in the 3I have access to even J5 travel? And that's with the 3I having had J5 for a century or more. Would the Zhodani have been selling the J3 drives? Especially to a Vargr? Perhaps they didn't; perhaps they've flat out denied the claim in prior investigations, and he instead stole one and lied.

Perhaps the 3I didn't realize the Zhodani had it then; it's not like Zho Historians are typically amongst the military forces. Or, perhaps they know, but don't want to admit that the Zhos had it.
All viewed through the lens of four thousand years of subsequent history.
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