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  #31  
Old May 16th, 2013, 10:24 AM
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Well then I have a new concern/question after reading that;
how could the ship species come up with the contract that you listed earlier?

Now, here is suggested answer;

The species starts with some changes after it reaches 500yrs of age and a metamorphosis after it reaches a C5 of 10

First for every 10 years of life after 500, a check is made to see if C4 and C5 are increased
with a max of C4 of 12.
Once a C5 (instinct) of 10 is reached, the ship goes into a sleeper/hibernation state of life for 1 year for every 100 years of life. Once the ship reaches 10 C5, it knows it has 1 month per 100 years of existence to reach a safe harbor (home world, colony world, or a water like world that meets its needs.)

During this hibernation, the ship changes both physically and mentally. C5 becomes Edu and no longer instinct starting at number of years alive divided by 100 rounded down.
It also looses the ability to be in space and turns into something like a cross between a whale and a turtle. It can manage some open air land but not for long due to it's size.

When it awakes it has memories of it's past but no longer has the desire to travel. It wants to learn and needs others of its kind around or it will go crazy. It will now have the ability to reproduce but like the hivers, being both male and female, it still needs another of it's race to reproduce healthy living creatures. If it attempts to reproduce with out another of it's race, all stats are 1d6 less and will possibly have more aggressive or non-society like traits.

The vast majority of sentient races have no idea about this Stage 2 of the race and Stage 1 (the ships) are of the same race.


This will give a large variance to how big (old) the Stage 2 race is. Their life span does not change or reset once they metamorph into Stage 2.

There are rumors among the other sentient races that know about Stage 1 and Stage 2 that there is a stage 3 but no one has seen one and the ship race do not talk about it, at all.

I am kind of assuming that the ships have 1,000 year lifespan. If you mentioned one before, I do not remember.

Just again some thoughts of mine.

Dave Chase
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  #32  
Old May 17th, 2013, 01:26 AM
warwizard warwizard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigmund View Post
I appreciate the extended explanation, but I can't say it has done much to ameliorate my concern that unpredictable conditions could apparently orchestrate a complete or partial loss of control of the ship. I would imagine a decent captain would also be concerned about all this contract mumbo-jumbo between the "ship" and the "company". Rights are being pushed for the "ship" to gain materially from newly discovered worlds. What about the Captain and crew? Why should the "ship" get any rights or gains at all, when it wouldn't understand anything about new planets with just an animal intelligence, and it would have been the work of the Captain and crew that got the "ship" there in the first place. After paying the "purchase" price for one of these ships, why can the owner not do with and dispose of the "ship" as he or she sees fit? Captain Jin would be forced to wonder whether, even after paying the "purchase" price for this "ship", he would actually own it. In his opinion, the only "contract" that should exist at all is between the company that produced the "ship" and the sophont paying the hard-earned money to "buy" the ship, after which the ship gains only the benefits the owner decides it should, and no more. If there is some sort of Imperial Law to protect this "ship" from being used or disposed of in this way or that, I am back to wondering why Captain Jin should consider laying down his hard earned cash for this "ship" over a purely mechanical vessel that would suffer no such constraints.

My fears are also still not alleviated over this "flight" response. It's not like a faulty computer that can be removed and replaced. Captain Jin (or any other character looking to use ship shares on a ship) is being asked to hand over assets he worked for decades to accrue. years and years of labor would be tied up in this vessel that apparently can develop a completely unrepairable "psychosis" that he would then be forced to give up almost the entire value of his existence over. Damage can be repaired, and more importantly, predicted. His skill in command and decision-making would come into play to prevent the loss of his ship when it's mechanical. However, he knows nothing about the "psychology" of biological ships. He will be asked to choose, when considering what to spend his assets on, between this ship and a purely mechanical ship from a standard, tested, pattern with no need for any fears of "psychological" issues coming from the ship itself. So, why should or would he choose this ship over any other? Certainly he would be fascinated by the biological basis, but I'd be willing to bet that, given the stated more widespread use of biological tech in this TU, there are biological ships with almost no native intelligence or instinct at all that would suffer no such issues and would be directed and controlled by purely mechanical means. Why should we not choose one of those?
Why would the ship have any rights? Because as a species the Ships do have intellegence, in the writeup they are limited to TL 2 so it's not much intellegence, and they do not have a concept of money or possessions, but they do have motivations and that is to find more places they can live, nowhere have I asked for the ship as an entitety to gain any of these other rights that our honorable referee has alluded to, the colony is not the possession of the ship, the deal is with the species and DDB. The concept of employee is used and a pay account is maintained, and there are indeed funds set aside from the pay account for the return, the only Ships that ever spend a credit are the ones that are floating islands, so there is the clue, the ships gain intellegence as they become larger. At 250 dt this Ship is as I have portraied it willfull and headstrong like a spirited horse, however this horse has a skilled rider (the AI) just as any horse will shy away or attack a deadly threat such as a rattlesnake or hunting cat, there are instinctive reactions, a good rider should be able to regain control in short order. How likley is such a reaction to be? Not very likley unless you happen to be in some large ocean and scare up a 200 meter flying hunter that reminds the ship of the carnivores of it's homeworld. In short there ARE drawbacks to having a living ship. I do not know if there are such living hulls that do not have anything beyond a tree's intellegence. The nature of the permatic imperium's biosciences have not been explained to me. I have assummed that they take preexisting creatures and modify them as opposed to custom bioengineer the entire thing as an unthinking object.

As to the mental stability, when the ship is returned to it's homeworld the drives are disassembled and are available to be installed into another Ship, which is then made available to other customers, meanwhile another ship can be assigned to your use.
If you manage to kill your ship you of course are welcome to fly around in it's dead carcass, however DDB is under no obligation to provide you with a replacement in that event.
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*all non So humaniti are much closer related to Homo Nethanderalis than are So, and are immediately recognizable to So as "cavemen" complete with fur and the other morphological characteristics that were unimportant to Grandfather's need for a better servant
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  #33  
Old May 17th, 2013, 02:31 AM
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Arrow [Referee] Pretty high actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warwizard View Post
/snip/ I have assummed that they take preexisting creatures and modify them as opposed to custom bioengineer the entire thing as an unthinking object. /snip/
The Permatic Imperium has quiet a high biosciences tech level and in fact would bioengineer it into an unthinking object, if for no other reason than the responses I have seen here in this thread to the idea of a living, thinking ship.

Not that the idea is not cool, just it does seem too extreme for some folks, though I am not so against it.

So, we will class this an experimental model that allowed the locals to achieve star flight during the Interregnum when any hull was used to keep the starlanes open. However as things have got better, DDB has engineered the sentience of the species out of the current models of this hull-style and it is purely non-thinking hull and components.
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  #34  
Old May 17th, 2013, 10:21 AM
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Sorry, was not criticizing your ship design at all, I was asking questions and making comments/suggestions.

As for saying that someone (or some race) at TL 2 is not very intelligent, I strongly beg to differ with you there.

Tech levels have nothing to do with Intelligence, they instead refer to how advance they are.

Just look back at our own earth history, it took some great intelligence to do things that humans have done, specially with the limit of TL in some cases.


Again, I am only offer discussion and comments, not a final rule or saying it's wrong.

Dave Chase
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  #35  
Old May 18th, 2013, 12:12 AM
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I did not meant to criticize either. I also think the idea of it is cool. However, viewing the issue from a strictly pragmatic stand-point, I would have to say that if I had a huge wad of cash that I had spent most of my adult life accumulating, I would be very very picky about what I would spend it on. The ship being even semi-sentient would make actual "ownership" of it tantamount to slavery it seems to me. Plus, there's the issue of it's exercising of instinctual or learned responses. A rider can dismount (even the hard way) from an unruly horse without suffering unduly. Not so with a star ship. The stakes, both financial and health-wise, are extremely high in this case. It comes down to the simple fact that, given a choice between the unknown of the living ship and the completely predictable fully mechanical ship, it's really no choice at all. More than just himself or his crew, Capt. Jin would have to keep the safety of any passengers foremost in his mind when thinking about what ship to buy and how it would be used.

Now if we were being "assigned" a ship for specific reasons (extended exploration far from Imperial resources where the ability to heal and find it's own fuel and react to conditions without orders, etc would be very useful), it would be an entirely different story.
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Old May 18th, 2013, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warwizard View Post
Why would the ship have any rights? Because as a species the Ships do have intellegence, in the writeup they are limited to TL 2 so it's not much intellegence, and they do not have a concept of money or possessions, but they do have motivations and that is to find more places they can live, nowhere have I asked for the ship as an entitety to gain any of these other rights that our honorable referee has alluded to, the colony is not the possession of the ship, the deal is with the species and DDB. The concept of employee is used and a pay account is maintained, and there are indeed funds set aside from the pay account for the return, the only Ships that ever spend a credit are the ones that are floating islands, so there is the clue, the ships gain intellegence as they become larger. At 250 dt this Ship is as I have portraied it willfull and headstrong like a spirited horse, however this horse has a skilled rider (the AI) just as any horse will shy away or attack a deadly threat such as a rattlesnake or hunting cat, there are instinctive reactions, a good rider should be able to regain control in short order. How likley is such a reaction to be? Not very likley unless you happen to be in some large ocean and scare up a 200 meter flying hunter that reminds the ship of the carnivores of it's homeworld. In short there ARE drawbacks to having a living ship. I do not know if there are such living hulls that do not have anything beyond a tree's intellegence. The nature of the permatic imperium's biosciences have not been explained to me. I have assummed that they take preexisting creatures and modify them as opposed to custom bioengineer the entire thing as an unthinking object.

As to the mental stability, when the ship is returned to it's homeworld the drives are disassembled and are available to be installed into another Ship, which is then made available to other customers, meanwhile another ship can be assigned to your use.
If you manage to kill your ship you of course are welcome to fly around in it's dead carcass, however DDB is under no obligation to provide you with a replacement in that event.
My issue with this, as I briefly alluded to in my post just previous to this one, is that I and possibly the other PCs are supposed to be spending ship shares to "buy" this ship. With the ship possessing even a primitive intelligence, how could "buying" the ship be justified? If we can't buy it, how are we going to take possession of it? I certainly would never consent to "rent" a ship with ship shares. Sure the ship lives, as a ship, for a long time. However, the fact that Jin is a robot and might also "live" much longer than a human, combined with the common practice (and I'm assuming it's also true for this TU) of handing ships down to descendants, why should a character "buy" a ship that they will one day lose even if it's kept in perfect working conditioned and completely pampered... or heck even left in a big hangar for 1000 years? How does one "buy" this ship at all if it's considered an "employee" of the company that "built" it? Would the "buyer" actually own the ship even though it still has contractual obligations to the company? Would the company refund the money if the ship "rebelled"? If I "buy" the ship, how would it have any resale value like a mechanical ship would? As my character is the one who's in the IC thread right now on his way to look for a ship to buy, I as his player have to think about these things. He's a pretty dang smart robot... he would not be very open to getting entangled what seems to me like it would, at the very least, be a pretty convoluted legal maze regarding ownership of an intelligent living ship. I understand the desire to play the ship as a character, and yeah it's very Farscape, but the premise of this game so far doesn't seem like it would support that very well, unless Magnus switches it up a bit.
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  #37  
Old May 18th, 2013, 12:45 AM
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Getting tired and had a very weird and twisted thought that relies on an assumption (which if the assumption is not true then this thought is completely invalid.)

Assuming that if the ship died that it can still function as a ship (based off earlier questions asked) and the company was willing to part with the ship at a reasonable rate including the AI (or a new AI) with it.

Ship is purchased and functions quite normally for a ship other than it is now dead. But interestingly enough after a few weeks/months (or some time) the ship seems start having some issues with some of the environmental life support. What actually is happening is that the ship picked up a very rare virus (disease) that basically made it appear to be dead because it went into a severe hibernation (healing) state.

Now the characters have a living ship that they own to deal with but they own it free and clear, except it is now sentient (or growing sentient) again.

Ok, just very twisted thought, now carry on back to normal reality. and have a good night.

Dave Chase
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  #38  
Old May 18th, 2013, 04:48 AM
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You have actually bought the cybernetics (drives and other fittings, sub hulls and pods) and the services of a Ship. Not of a specific Ship, of a Ship, if the Ship who's services you have, you do not like but has not breached contract, you have the option of returning it to it's homeworld and selecting a different Ship to provide services to you, however this will be at your cost. If the ship is in breech, then it's the Ship's cost. The law is specific you can't own a thinking being at any stage of it's life. (Artifical life begins at the instant the first code is run starting the learning process in the hardware.) The Ships become intellegent at a later life stage, therefore all life stages are protected from being owned property. A Human newborn does not have much in the way of intellegence, but that does not mean it can be property because right now it does not fit the description as being intellegent, likewize a human in the last stages of a brain disorder that robs them of their intellegence and memory is still a protected being.
DDB is given a guardianship relationship over the Ships that are given over for service, these "children" are expected to be brought back to homeworld and transitioned back into their ecosystem so that they may become adults.
A dead Ship is of no more intrest to DDB or the "parents". The Imperial law against murder still applies though.

As an aside: the T5 hulls would be of no volume or mass if they had no special fittings or armor layers beyond the first. (The design sequense went back to the TNE method of 13.5 m3 per ton displacement is usable internal space, the hull is not accounted for , but consumes the other .5m3 for every Ton displacement, so the base hull actually costs a flat 3 1/2 percent of the volume) T5 ACS does not track mass so there can be no realistic thrust numbers for a primitive rocket like what the Ships have. I cannot do an analysis of the ability of the Ships to actually reach outside of the atmosphere I am assumming some 95% of the internal volume of a Ship consists of two large water tanks and a few smaller H2O2 tanks. There are no large flight muscle masses, only smaller aerodynamic control surface positioning muscles.
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IMTU tc !23 mgt- mt+ TNE+ T4++ T20- T5 ?T5LBB ?tp tg-- ?th ?to ru ge++ !3i+ c++ jt- au+ ls- pi+,-- ta- he+ ?kk ?hi as dr ?ith ?vr ?ne vg+ So++ Zh- Vi-- da Sy
*all non So humaniti are much closer related to Homo Nethanderalis than are So, and are immediately recognizable to So as "cavemen" complete with fur and the other morphological characteristics that were unimportant to Grandfather's need for a better servant
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  #39  
Old May 18th, 2013, 05:43 AM
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Arrow [Referee] KISS and make up. ;p

Let keep things simple and not get out of hand, at this point no one has bought anything, but this is looking to become a long and involved legal discussion and I just thought I was getting a sort of neato ship, but so far got the start of problems.

So, let us skip the living, thinking ship and stick with just plain non-thinking bioengineered organic components, which is more in keeping with the histroy of the universe and the wishes of some of the crew, or at least a couple any way. Though I too find the issue a bit hinky, but interesting too damned complicated to deal with right now.

To repeat, no living, thinking ships for now. It can still be organic, in fact probably are at high TLs, but it is not a thinking being.

That which may have been tolerated during the Interregnum may not be so tolerated in the Permatic Imperium.
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Duke of Sinta, Count Smoug, Viscount Alell, Musayid, & Nii Khu, Marquis Malory & Phlume, Baron Donu-na,
Knight Retainer of the Emperor for Salla, Inarli, & Bhuur,
Knight Retainer of the Baron Jacha, Knight Retainer of the Baronet Kiind,
Knight of the Third Imperium for Trane,
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Old May 18th, 2013, 10:50 AM
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Then I need to know what are the groups requirements down to specifics. Please see my previous post requesting each character to respond.
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IMTU tc !23 mgt- mt+ TNE+ T4++ T20- T5 ?T5LBB ?tp tg-- ?th ?to ru ge++ !3i+ c++ jt- au+ ls- pi+,-- ta- he+ ?kk ?hi as dr ?ith ?vr ?ne vg+ So++ Zh- Vi-- da Sy
*all non So humaniti are much closer related to Homo Nethanderalis than are So, and are immediately recognizable to So as "cavemen" complete with fur and the other morphological characteristics that were unimportant to Grandfather's need for a better servant
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