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  #41  
Old September 15th, 2020, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Enoff View Post
Looking over "Netrunner" a Sci-fi card game by the same author as "Magic" makes we wonder if there was ever an attempt to create a similar "Traveller" game?
My theory on the rise of CCGs is that traditional complex counter war games, and even RPGs, don't present or vette the kind of minds that industry, medicine and law enforcement need; i.e. a person who can solve a task within a timely manner with a given set of data.

Games that I grew up with, like Traveller, Star Fleet Battles, Car Wars, Ogre et al, present environment specific scenarios that can be rescaled to military applications, but don't provide the "surprise" or unexpected situation that card games offer; i.e. Spock "Chess", verse Kirk's "Not chess, Spock. Poker."

I've played WW2 CCGs, Magic, and the SFB version. I liked none of them. SFB on its surface, supposed to be an extension of the fantasy that is Star Trek. Traveller is, in my opinion, a GURPS like extension of the role playing aspect of a Trek, Star Wars, Buck Rogers, what have you. And when I see a card game that's supposed to supplant or support those fictions, I roll my eyes.

CCGs of warsims and RPGs take away the figure / counter, take away maps, take away character sheets, take away encounter charts, combat matrixes and whatever else. I mean, I don't play games like I used to, but I really detest CCGs as another test to see who would make desirable candidates for important real life careers. It's almost a kind of head hunter tool for employment. That's my take.

If there was a Star Trek CCG (and there probably is, but I'm too lazy to look it up), then you wouldn't have your character sheet listing your attributes and skills, but a hand of X-number of cards. Some games have a board and playing pieces, but you're not mapping anything. There's no dungeon crawl. There's no specific map movement and exploration so that you can check for traps or turn that alien switch or press that alien button.

Thanks to a variety of circumstances I can no longer organize a gaming group, but if I could, and someone brought a CCG to my house, I would refuse to play it and ask everyone to pick another game, or ask CCG person to find another gaming group, even if it cost me my group.

I'm just tired of seeing them and hearing about them. The last con I went to the year before last had lots of card games ... all of which I hated. I know I'm an old fuddy duddy, but I prefer Car Wars with either counters or minis on a huge map that takes up two dining tables over some card game that dismisses building a vehicle, adding features to it, and dismisses your ability to drive the thing and decide when to fire or not and what range and conditions can do to your chances of hitting and maneuvering.

I really don't get the attraction of CCGs. I really don't. To me they're an extremely dumbed down version of the games that they're supposed to be based off of.

That's my soap box moment, and my two Credits Imperial.
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  #42  
Old September 17th, 2020, 10:32 AM
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When Magic appeared, everyone and their brother was stamping out card games.

I bought 2 decks of Magic, but I never really played it. I was immediately put off by the collecting aspect of it, honestly. I have friends that went over the top on it.

In general I've learned that I don't care for deck building games so much, at least not when you have a gazillion cards to choose from to make a tiny deck. Just not that interested enough to read all the cards.

I do enjoy an occasional game of Hearthstone, which is an electronic CCG. They do a good job of mixing the two genres. You get to encounter that feast famine cycle of when the cards you're actually drawing from the deck Just So Happen to synchronize and perform Great Feats compared to when you just get all the wrong cards in all the wrong order and flounder the entire hand. Such is RNG.

I've earned dozens of "free packs" in the game, but I've never opened them. Content to play with stock cards, until I rate high enough to start encountering other players who have full customs decks and beat me senseless. I just stop playing at that point.
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  #43  
Old September 17th, 2020, 06:15 PM
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I don't want to dump on CCGs, and I'm not going to, but the thing that gets me is that with this game, Traveller, or Dungeons and Dragons, HERO / Champions, even Car Wars, SFB, or any of the table top war sims or RPGs, you're there for the story experience. CCGs offer absolutely nothing in terms of being part of a story or saga other than what you can cobble out of various events, and even then it's pretty abstract stuff; i.e. so-and-so attacked me with a dragon card so I countered with my ranger-army card kind of thing.

When I used to watch Wil Wheaton's "Table Top" it got really old really fast because in spite of the classic RPG and warsim CGI intro, it was all about card games applied to a traditional game board ... maybe with a few dice. Okay, great, if that's what you like, then go for it. And now that "gaming" has gone mainstream (so to speak) these board-card games are all the rage.

I guess the real thing that bothers me is the cross pollination that this thread is dedicated to. I don't play Traveller anymore (nor much else other than online stuff), but am continually perplexed by the attraction of CCGs. As per my previous post there's no mapping, no maneuvering, nearly no "simulation" aspect, which is what attracted the older previous generations to the warsim and RPG genres.

One of the local gamestores used to be essentially a hobby store. But now it's a grade schooler hangout. You walk in (and I haven't been there in years) and it's all Pokemon, Magic, Dragon Ball Z and what have you plastered over the front counter next to the cash register, in the glass cases, and plastered all over the wall behind the counter. Whatever.

To me a CCG for Traveller or Car Wars or Star Fleet Battles will have a niche following, but only for those people who like card games. Again the whole attraction behind the war sims and RPGs is that you can live out your fantasies or share a story with your friends on a weekend or weekday evening or something. You roll up or build your character or vehicle, or select a starship within a BPV range, and then gear up and have at it. You don't get any of that with a CCG, and you have to spend more money to keep competitive.

Maybe someone can explain the attraction to me. Maybe I shouldn't be posting here because I'm essentially done with a lot of games on all levels, but the CCG attraction is really an oddball to my eyes.
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  #44  
Old September 17th, 2020, 08:48 PM
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The appeal of CCGs vs board games and TTRPGs?

Simple....
  • the gambling aspect
  • the low play time
  • the portability
  • the concealability

The gambling aspect, especially MTG as released initially, was quite an incentive. (at initial release, the rules had an ante; you each shuffled your deck, your opponent cuts yours, and the top card is out of your deck; Winner takes both ante cards. Later, it moved to false ante- the drawn card simply remained unplayable, but wasn't captured. Later still, it was dropped.)
Add the gambling of random insertion packs, and you've got a potent gambling element.

The low play time makes it a great pick-up game.
The portability of the average CCG (one or two deck boxes, and some dice) makes it a great game for students, even if it's been banned on campus.
The concealability of the game materials also has value in terms of play where it's been banned.

The trading card aspect is little different from sportscards.

Pokémon has a strong following by intermediate and middle grades, where often CCG's are banned, but players can often get away with sneaking a game in on the playground.

I enjoyed playing MTG... but not enough to keep paying to be on par with others with more money to throw.

Still, I keep some cheap commons around for generating ideas for fantasy games.
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  #45  
Old September 17th, 2020, 10:44 PM
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Thanks for the reply. I did not mean to stop the thread nor the forum in general.

I did not know there was a gambling aspect. But it makes sense that there would be. Are the card games banned in schools because of the gambling aspect? I'm really in the dark here as I'm not a follower of CCGs.

I can see the playability and portability, and I can see how themes attract certain players for a time, but to me on CCG will ever replace something like ... Beltstrike or Snap Shot or what have you.

I guess my issues is with their marketing, and how old school game designers are buying into CCGs. If they work, then great. But didn't TSR or some other big name company close their doors (maybe it was someone here) because the whole CCG thing didn't pan out?
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  #46  
Old September 18th, 2020, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
CCGs offer absolutely nothing in terms of being part of a story or saga other than what you can cobble out of various events, and even then it's pretty abstract stuff; i.e. so-and-so attacked me with a dragon card so I countered with my ranger-army card kind of thing.
The attraction is the "infinite" mashup of mechanics and their interactions. It's Cosmic Encounters writ large with a dizzy array of aspects and powers and timing, all interwoven together. When you have a game where the cards are the rules, you never quite know what you're going to get on each play.

Add in the deck building aspect where you as player plot out how the cards interact, both against the cards in your deck and the cards you think your opponent may be using, and it become quite the puzzle to try and solve.

At the same time, the game can be very casual. It has a lot of depth but can be easy to play as well.

Since you play online, you should try Hearthstone, it's free, I've never dropped a dime on it, you can play against other players or the computer. They have "dungeons" where you have a starting deck and go against stronger and stronger "bosses", and get to add cards to your deck at the end of each round. It's World of Warcraft based fantasy. I find it casual and fun, I don't play it seriously. Like I said earlier, I've earned lots of packs I've never opened, and I have lots of gold I've never spent.

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As per my previous post there's no mapping, no maneuvering, nearly no "simulation" aspect, which is what attracted the older previous generations to the warsim and RPG genres.
You're absolutely correct that there's no sim aspect to the game at all. But there's definitely a mapping aspect as the player builds up their tableau of resources and abilities. There's a lot of "battle space" control that can go on in the playing field.

Quote:
To me a CCG for Traveller or Car Wars or Star Fleet Battles will have a niche following, but only for those people who like card games. Again the whole attraction behind the war sims and RPGs is that you can live out your fantasies or share a story with your friends on a weekend or weekday evening or something. You roll up or build your character or vehicle, or select a starship within a BPV range, and then gear up and have at it.
There is certainly room for card games in the Traveller universe. It's easy to see the possibility of a card game focused on trading and routes and cargo. Imagine if they came out with a Traveller themed version of "Up Front" (a WWII card game from the "Squad Leader Universe" [I honestly have no idea what it has to do with SL beyond being WWII squads and originally from Avalon Hill]).

But those aren't CCGs.

Quote:
You don't get any of that with a CCG, and you have to spend more money to keep competitive.
That's the singular aspect that made them spectacularly unattractive to me. I have friends who have what I call the "Gambling" and "Collector" genes. One was very big in to MTG. As another person put it a long time ago "There goes someone with too much money for their lifestyle". He poured untold $$$ in to MTG.

[QUOTE=Blue Ghost;616002]Thanks for the reply. I did not mean to stop the thread nor the forum in general.

I did not know there was a gambling aspect. But it makes sense that there would be. Are the card games banned in schools because of the gambling aspect? I'm really in the dark here as I'm not a follower of CCGs.

Quote:
But didn't TSR or some other big name company close their doors (maybe it was someone here) because the whole CCG thing didn't pan out?
No, they closed their doors because the CCG thing DID pan out, just not for TSR.

MTG was the great Sucking Sound of capital and revenue from the gaming market when it hit in the 90's. Many companies lost a lot of business as the market pivoted. That's why WoTC own D&D now.
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  #47  
Old September 18th, 2020, 03:13 PM
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There are several aspects of fantasy card games that have already been described, but it was basically at one end adding complexity, colour, and cover to what may have been before kids playing poker or blackjack, while on the other end simplifying interaction.

The there's the investment angle; I've got at least a plastic page full of dual lands, in an album I haven't looked at in years, and when I mentioned it to a colleague of my brother's during a night out, he got very excited and wanted to buy them off me.

Though I suspect you really made bank on Pokemon.

I lost touch with play buddies and the increasing complexity of rules and add ons made me shelf the cards I didn't dispose off.

Loved the art, loved the quotations.

Dungeons and Dragons, as well as Star Trek, made an attempt at market share, as well as many others; the most memorable to me was I think from Steve Jackson Games with his conspiracy variant, which was chockful of injokes.
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  #48  
Old September 18th, 2020, 04:37 PM
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Thumbs down If "War in the Pacific" were a CCG.

I need to make a correction here, I've actually played a couple of others, but I can't remember them very well. One had a horror theme or something, and another was a Magic variant.

I can see if you're a younger person being lured by the pretty colors and alluring art. You're in that stage of life where you're developing your life strategies, and CCGs I'm sure guide that in some way. But even as a 30 something when I was part of an SFB gaming group, when a lot of SFB people were dabbling in card games, to me it wasn't an allure.

Again, I'm not bashing CCGs. But they offer something much different from RPGs and Warsims. I had friends who collected baseball cards, hockey cards, stamps, and other things. From that perspective I can kind of see how marrying that to a game mechanic would be a lure for people. But even if it's a fantasy CCG you're not there with your character deciding how you're going to take on that band of orcs / goblins by strategizing with other players. And that's kind of where I fall out with CCGs.

And to my gamer's way of thinking the publishers of these things have gamed the decks and cards to get maximum profit. That being the case there's probably some unscrupulous publisher who'll just create intentionally rigged decks for very popular media properties or genres. I'm guessing that's happened, and that those games / decks aren't very popular.

I don't know. I just find them unattractive, and am unable to fathom why adults find them attractive. But whatever. More power to you. I guess that's all I have to say on the topic.
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Old September 18th, 2020, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
....
the most memorable to me was I think from Steve Jackson Games with his conspiracy variant, which was chockful of injokes.
Yep. Never was much into the game itself, but the cards were hilarious.
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  #50  
Old September 19th, 2020, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks for the reply. I did not mean to stop the thread nor the forum in general.

I did not know there was a gambling aspect. But it makes sense that there would be. Are the card games banned in schools because of the gambling aspect? I'm really in the dark here as I'm not a follower of CCGs.
The cards are banned in schools as disruptive influences more than anything else. I've never turned a kid over to the principal for cards, but I have said, "Hand them over; pick them up when the bell rings." Both with my own classes, and with classes I was subbing in.

Elementary tends to be more Pokémon, which only has the random booster aspect.
Middle and high tend to be more MTG, but Pokémon is #2.

Note that False Ante went away about a decade ago, as far as I can tell without doing the research.

Still, random insert packs are a mode of gambling. Oregon very nearly banned sale of them as unlicensed gambling in the 90's... failed by a couple votes in the legislature. Another proposal at the time was to require the pack price to exceed the maximum value of a pack's contents...

Alaska's ban died in committee... and would only have banned sale of random insert packs to children, not to adults, and required that the sales profits go to §501(c) non-profits, same as rippies and scratch-offs.
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