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TWILIGHT: 2000 1E/2E Discussion of the Twilight: 2000 from GDW.

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  #11  
Old April 26th, 2018, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Putraack View Post
Like a lot of GDW's RPGs, the designers wanted to leave lots of blank space for the referee to fill in. One of the core concepts of T2k is that the PCs have freedom of action amidst chaos. They also have enough firepower & skill to matter on at least a local level.
I can understand that, as the Morrow Project has somewhat of the same problem.

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Originally Posted by Putraack View Post
If there were fleets still in operation, then things might be too organized to fit the above conditions, so lack of fuel and spare parts has beached nearly all the vessels, after the intense fighting that did occur.
The problem that I have with this is that the designers wrote as if the rest of the world did not exist. I have been going through the CIA World Factbook for 1994, looking at the Caribbean and the Indian Ocean ares. Quite simply, fuel is not going to be a problem in either area, not by a very long shot. In the Caribbean, you have petroleum production in both Mexico and Venezuela, with refineries scattered about the area, besides the ones on Curacao and Aruba, which have been running since prior to World War 2. You also have a very large production of ethyl alcohol on the various islands of the West Indies. That does not count production and refining in Ecuador. Brazil had a fairly large navy, to include a helicopter carrier, along with a substantial armaments industry. As for the Indian Ocean area, you have Indonesia as a starter for petroleum production, along with Sarawak and Brunei, and refineries all over the place. None of those are going to be knocked out. Australia provides a strong industrial base for supplies of ammunition and spare parts, along with a Navy and Air Force, with refueling tankers. Singapore also is in the mix, as is Taiwan. This does not count India or Pakistan at all. South Africa had an industrial base as well, along with the Sasol gas gasification plants.

The other problem is that if there is no fuel for naval vessels, nor spare parts, then there is going to be no fuel or spare parts for civilian shipping, which apparently is taking place. There is a lot of civilian merchant shipping in existence that appears in the southern hemisphere, along with shipbuilding and repair installations. Quite simply, that is not going to disappear overnight, as the designers appear to believe.

As the CIA Factbook can be downloaded in a PDF copy and paste format, I might put some of the data in it into a background piece for the game. And before someone says that the designers would not have access to a PDF file back then, you could buy hard copies from the Government Printing Office for the year of 1986, when they were designing the game. As for the East African Sourcebook, which came out last year, they would have access to the files.
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Old April 26th, 2018, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
The problem that I have with this is that the designers wrote as if the rest of the world did not exist.
When you're huddled around a fire in the cold with your mates, counting ammo and rationing food, "the rest of the world" doesn't really matter. T2K is a local game, not a global one.

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I have been going through the CIA World Factbook for 1994, looking at the Caribbean and the Indian Ocean ares. Quite simply, fuel is not going to be a problem in either area, not by a very long shot. In the Caribbean, you have petroleum production in both Mexico and Venezuela, with refineries scattered about the area, besides the ones on Curacao and Aruba, which have been running since prior to World War 2.
Having oil fields and refineries don't mean a whole lot when you don't have the people, expertise, and other infrastructure to operate and support them.
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Old April 26th, 2018, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by whartung View Post
Having oil fields and refineries don't mean a whole lot when you don't have the people, expertise, and other infrastructure to operate and support them.
Are you telling me that Australia does not have the infrastructure to support oil refineries? The Mexican ones and the ones on Curacao and Aruba have been running since before World War 2. Brazil is also running oil refineries. Are you saying that Brazil cannot run an oil refinery? Then there is Singapore and Indonesia. Indonesia has been running refineries since before World War 2. South Africa was running the Sasol coal gasification plant without outside assistance, as well as oil refineries. Then there is Taiwan and India, along with Sri Lanka. Ireland is also doing oil refining, and with the very odd nuclear attack pattern given in the various Twilight 2000 books. so is the United States Gulf Coast, along with Texas. I am not sure about California. Then there are the refineries in Alaska on the Kenai Peninsula. Malaysia also produces and refines petroleum, with some of the refineries dating from prior to World War 2.

As for the rest of the U.S., aside from the refinery concentration along the southern tip of Lake Michigan, there are also refineries in the area of Kankakee and Joliet, as well as a couple of small ones in the more central part of Illinois. There are also some along Interstate 80 in Ohio that you can see flaring gas off from the Interstate.

What you claiming is that all of the people running these refineries suddenly have vanished into thin air, leaving the refineries behind intact.

As for the comment on being huddled around a fire, I am mainly looking at the Caribbean and the East African sourcebook. The replica Constitution is sailing in the Caribbean, and the East African sourcebook is set in Kenya. By the way, there is a refinery is Tanzania listed by the CIA, along with refineries in Madagascar.
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  #14  
Old April 26th, 2018, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Are you telling me that Australia does not have the infrastructure to support oil refineries? The Mexican ones and the ones on Curacao and Aruba have been running since before World War 2. Brazil is also running oil refineries. Are you saying that Brazil cannot run an oil refinery? Then there is Singapore and Indonesia. Indonesia has been running refineries since before World War 2. South Africa was running the Sasol coal gasification plant without outside assistance, as well as oil refineries. Then there is Taiwan and India, along with Sri Lanka. Ireland is also doing oil refining, and with the very odd nuclear attack pattern given in the various Twilight 2000 books. so is the United States Gulf Coast, along with Texas. I am not sure about California. Then there are the refineries in Alaska on the Kenai Peninsula. Malaysia also produces and refines petroleum, with some of the refineries dating from prior to World War 2.
The nuclear targeting lists that have been leaked put fuel refineries on the target list as operations targets. Right along with coaling stations (which haven't had coal since before WW I, but Dieseling stations has other connotations).
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Old April 26th, 2018, 09:39 PM
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Without entering on the plausability of the scenarios (neither v1 nor v2), according the backgrouns, IIRC, it is said that most of the fleet was lost (or damaged beyond repair capcities) in heavy fighting in the morth sea (mostly in the GIUK line). I guess the Mediterranean had also some hevay fighting when Italy enter at war on the WP side...

No details are given, but I guess the long range URSS air would be the main killer of NATO ships.

As for France, remember it remained neutral (as Germany was the attacker, they claimed not to be bound by NATO defensive treaties), as did Benelux and Spain. The Soviets only made some chirugical strikes on all of them, but France keeps most its nuclear arsenal and remains more or less intact (the lack of fuel due to worldwide shortages is the main damage to all those countries).
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Old April 26th, 2018, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post

What you claiming is that all of the people running these refineries suddenly have vanished into thin air, leaving the refineries behind intact.
According to the Howling Wilderness module (and pretty much all of canon, really) that's pretty much what happened, yeah. DC got nuked, lots of people in lots of cities bugged out, leaving empty cities to get nuked or not according to the target list and the whims of the referee. The people survived, or didn't, and the survivors made do the best they could in the circumstances.

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As for the comment on being huddled around a fire, I am mainly looking at the Caribbean and the East African sourcebook. The replica Constitution is sailing in the Caribbean, and the East African sourcebook is set in Kenya. By the way, there is a refinery is Tanzania listed by the CIA, along with refineries in Madagascar.
Given that the CIA had a bigger budget than GDW, you're right, one could discuss many sites around the world and the divergence from in-game and real-world happenings. GDW never put out exhaustive sourcebooks for the entire planet, and if it gives you more fun to have any given refinery on the planet up and running, go right ahead.
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Old April 26th, 2018, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Without entering on the plausability of the scenarios (neither v1 nor v2), according the backgrouns, IIRC, it is said that most of the fleet was lost (or damaged beyond repair capcities) in heavy fighting in the morth sea (mostly in the GIUK line). I guess the Mediterranean had also some hevay fighting when Italy enter at war on the WP side...

No details are given, but I guess the long range URSS air would be the main killer of NATO ships.

As for France, remember it remained neutral (as Germany was the attacker, they claimed not to be bound by NATO defensive treaties), as did Benelux and Spain. The Soviets only made some chirugical strikes on all of them, but France keeps most its nuclear arsenal and remains more or less intact (the lack of fuel due to worldwide shortages is the main damage to all those countries).
What fuel shortage? Aside from the Arabian Gulf countries, which are apparently still producing oil, you have all of the rest of the world still capable of production. Libya and Algeria are still producing in the Mediterranean, while Nigeria is probably still producing, along with Indonesia, Venezuela, Ecuador, and several other countries, along with all of the offshore wells. With most of Europe no longer consuming, apparently, as well as the US and the USSR, China, and I guess Japan, you are going to have an oil surplus.

As for France staying neutral, where do you think that all of the fallout from the UK hammering is going to go, along with the USSR as a precaution taking out France's land-based missiles as well as the nuclear missile submarine bases?

I assume all of Europe, including the major portion of the European USSR has been thoroughly nuked, Poland and Czechoslovakia possibly excluded.

I will not even get into the unlikelihood of massive NATO fleet losses, especially in the Med. Have any of the forum looked at exactly how large the total NATO fleet is, without even counting the US Pacific forces? I know that, at the time, most of the US naval analysts were only counting a straight US-USSR naval forces and assuming that the rest of NATO did not exist.

As for Germany deciding to invade on its own, NATO is a defensive alliance, with treaty obligations only operating when a member is attacked. If Germany, for some bizarre reason, decided to launch a "lone wolf" attack, the rest of NATO would say that they are on their own. That would definitely include the US. My assumption is that with the Soviet offensive in China, Poland and Czechoslovakia go into revolt, and NATO moves in to help them. That would be what touches off the war, not some German offensive.
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Old April 26th, 2018, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
What fuel shortage? Aside from the Arabian Gulf countries, which are apparently still producing oil, you have all of the rest of the world still capable of production. Libya and Algeria are still producing in the Mediterranean, while Nigeria is probably still producing, along with Indonesia, Venezuela, Ecuador, and several other countries, along with all of the offshore wells. With most of Europe no longer consuming, apparently, as well as the US and the USSR, China, and I guess Japan, you are going to have an oil surplus.
The one caused by the loss of most oil fleet and the nuking of many refineries just to deny them to the enemy.

As an aside, IIRC, Japan also remained neutral in the war, keeping some marine fleet, but also needing oil too.

As for the rest of the background, well, be it believable or not it gave an interesting setting to play on. i agree some parts of it are quite difficult to swallow, though. Probably your view is more realistic, but would it give a setting equally interesting (and allowing most players to play people from their own countries)?
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Old April 27th, 2018, 06:07 PM
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The one caused by the loss of most oil fleet and the nuking of many refineries just to deny them to the enemy.

As an aside, IIRC, Japan also remained neutral in the war, keeping some marine fleet, but also needing oil too.
Does that nuking include the refineries in France and Japan, and also the tanker fleets supplying them with oil? Remember, most of the tanker fleet are ships owned by oil companies but operating under what is called "flags of convenience", so staying neutral when tankers are being sunk is going to be very difficult.

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As for the rest of the background, well, be it believable or not it gave an interesting setting to play on. i agree some parts of it are quite difficult to swallow, though. Probably your view is more realistic, but would it give a setting equally interesting (and allowing most players to play people from their own countries)?
I suspect that rather than continuing this thread, it might be better to set up some sort of an alternate universe thread for my ideas. As for allowing players to play people from their own countries, I am not sure.
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Old November 10th, 2018, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
it might be better to set up some sort of an alternate universe thread for my ideas.
You could. You also could be less 'prickly' when people speculate and arrive at different conclusions than your own. We have already established that Twilight is a rough estimate, not a close model, of the real world as it was.

For what it is worth, the current situation in Venezuela could be used to explain why some long-standing Third World refineries are out of operation or only producing a trickle. Humans cannot eat or drink oil.

Plus, both USSR and NATO would react badly if/when they found out about a third party selling lots of oil to the other combatant. They might lob a 'don't do that again' warning warhead on an offender who cannot do anything to retaliate. As noted above, the rulebooks are silent on conditions in much of the world, so you can decide what sounds reasonable to you and work from there.
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