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TWILIGHT: 2000 1E/2E Discussion of the Twilight: 2000 from GDW.

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  #11  
Old November 6th, 2017, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyB View Post
Suggestion/caution: Don't make the mistake that the originator of the Twilight:1964 materials did. He took the published T2K setting materials and projected them on to the T'64 scenario. America then was a completely foreign country compared to America now, or in 2007 (the rough date when the T'64 work was first done), or in 1987-1992 (rough midpoint for the original T2K setting work). Get to know that America as a foreign country before you apply the effects of Dropshot to it.
As I grew up during that period, I am well aware of that fact. I can remember the nuclear attack drills at school during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
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  #12  
Old November 6th, 2017, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
As I grew up during that period, I am well aware of that fact. I can remember the nuclear attack drills at school during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
They stopped doing them in Anchorage in about 1978...
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Old November 6th, 2017, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
According Wikipedia: Reorganization Objective Army Division (from Pentomic entry).
Thanks McPerth. That jogged my memory and reminded me of another thing I thought was funny at the time. The objective of the effort was to reorganize FROM the pentomic division rather than to reorganize TO something specific and the result was triangular divisions and regimental combat teams almost identical to what we had before the pentomic division.

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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Greetings Mike, do not worry about digging out your books. I have some of that already, as I hit the CMH and the Combined Arms Research Library Digital Library quite a bit.

Right now, I have enough projects on both the front and back burners that working on Dropshot is going to have to be in 2018. It does make for an interesting alternative scenario.
I understand that completely but I will still check my shelves later tonight and see if I can recommend some titles. You can then pull your own copies from CMH, CARL, or DTIC. Lots of great material on DTIC if you have access. I hope I don't lose mine when I retire next year.

Thanks for posting this timerover. I would love to look into Dropshot and maybe even collaborate down the road but my time is just as limited as yours. Please keep posting updates if and when you get to digging.

Mike
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  #14  
Old November 6th, 2017, 06:32 PM
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Greetings Mike, you might want to see about getting a copy of Anthony Cave Brown's book "Dropshot" online. I cannot figure out where my copy is presently, so I have a replacement coming. What I will do is start converting the Dropshot html file that I downloaded into my word processing program (Pages as I am on a Mac, and I totally despise Word), and start putting that online with editorial comments.

Another thing to factor into the equation would be as to whether or not the US would have been so upset about the UK and France taking the Suez Canal Zone back from Nasser's nationalization of it. Given the massive arms shipments to Egypt in 1955 and 1956, I suspect that having the Canal Zone under the control of NATO would have been a major desire. The possibility for a war to break out then between NATO and the Warsaw Pact was not negligible as 1956 was also the year of the Hungarian Uprising. The US was also supplying surplus F-84 Thunderjets to Yugoslavia, so Yugoslavia would not be part of the USSR forces. About the same time, you had the US draw a line for Red China at Quemoy and Matsu as well.

A scenario based on Dropshot would definitely not look like the later scenarios in Twilight 2000.
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Old November 6th, 2017, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Another thing to factor into the equation would be as to whether or not the US would have been so upset about the UK and France taking the Suez Canal Zone back from Nasser's nationalization of it. Given the massive arms shipments to Egypt in 1955 and 1956, I suspect that having the Canal Zone under the control of NATO would have been a major desire. The possibility for a war to break out then between NATO and the Warsaw Pact was not negligible as 1956 was also the year of the Hungarian Uprising. The US was also supplying surplus F-84 Thunderjets to Yugoslavia, so Yugoslavia would not be part of the USSR forces. About the same time, you had the US draw a line for Red China at Quemoy and Matsu as well.

A scenario based on Dropshot would definitely not look like the later scenarios in Twilight 2000.
True. Also factor in the US-France relationship strain over West German acceptance into NATO and the loss of French prestige after the fall of Dien Bien Phu in 1954.
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Old November 6th, 2017, 09:12 PM
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I can't find the pub about the ROAD transformation yet. It is probably in one of the boxes in the garage. I've run out of shelves...

But I did find a couple that might be useful, even if just tangentially.

1. TRADOC Historical Study Series: The Army's Training Revolution 1973-1990 by Anne W. Chapman. The first chapter covers initiatives started by GEN DePuy when he was TRADOC CG focusing on the transformation from a army intending to mobilize draftees to an all-volunteer standing army. Gives insights into what the army was like before 1973.

2. Jedburgh Team Operations in Support of the 12th Army Group, August 1944 by S J Lewis published by the Combat Studies Institute (should be available through CARL). I know much about the evolution of Special Operations and this pamphlet gives good insight into how SOF would have operated in support of a war against the Soviets in the 50s or early 60s.

3. Soviet Operational Deception: The Red Cloak by LTC Richard N. Armstrong also published by CSI. Only 56 pages with a ton of insight into how the Soviet Army operated in WWII and would have operated soon after.

I'll keep looking for the ROAD reference over this coming weekend.

Mike
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  #17  
Old November 7th, 2017, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major B View Post
I can't find the pub about the ROAD transformation yet. It is probably in one of the boxes in the garage. I've run out of shelves...

But I did find a couple that might be useful, even if just tangentially.

1. TRADOC Historical Study Series: The Army's Training Revolution 1973-1990 by Anne W. Chapman. The first chapter covers initiatives started by GEN DePuy when he was TRADOC CG focusing on the transformation from a army intending to mobilize draftees to an all-volunteer standing army. Gives insights into what the army was like before 1973.

2. Jedburgh Team Operations in Support of the 12th Army Group, August 1944 by S J Lewis published by the Combat Studies Institute (should be available through CARL). I know much about the evolution of Special Operations and this pamphlet gives good insight into how SOF would have operated in support of a war against the Soviets in the 50s or early 60s.

3. Soviet Operational Deception: The Red Cloak by LTC Richard N. Armstrong also published by CSI. Only 56 pages with a ton of insight into how the Soviet Army operated in WWII and would have operated soon after.

I'll keep looking for the ROAD reference over this coming weekend.

Mike
The 1959 Edition of FM 101-10 has the basic TO&E for the Airborne, Armored, and Infantry Divisions, along with weapons breakdown and ammunition load-outs. I believe that I got that from the CARL. I will have to see if I can find any FM on the rifle company organization on archvie.org. They do have the FM giving the organization of the infantry units from company to division during the Korean War period. Assuming an extended period of heightened tensions, some of the divisions might not switch over, so there is the possibility of two different divisional types. I do not think that the National Guard units were reorganized, but that needs to be checked.

I will start working on a timeline of World tension. Then there is the possibility given the Berlin Blockade and the Korean War for the balloon to go up in 1950, in which case, you are looking at World War 2 plus 5 years. Not that much difference in the Army units, except for tanks, but a lot of difference for the Air Force and Navy, with the introduction of the jet aircraft.

The World would also be a lot different, as the de-colonization of the UK and France would not really have started. The other factor would be that there would be a lot fewer strategic nuclear weapons around. The USSR would be in a world of hurt with respect to mounting attacks on the Continental US.
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Old November 8th, 2017, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
The 1959 Edition of FM 101-10 has the basic TO&E for the Airborne, Armored, and Infantry Divisions, along with weapons breakdown and ammunition load-outs. I believe that I got that from the CARL. I will have to see if I can find any FM on the rifle company organization on archvie.org. They do have the FM giving the organization of the infantry units from company to division during the Korean War period. Assuming an extended period of heightened tensions, some of the divisions might not switch over, so there is the possibility of two different divisional types. I do not think that the National Guard units were reorganized, but that needs to be checked.
I checked again and found the 1941 and 1944 editions of FM 100-5 so not much help there. Also dug out the 1954 edition of Company Administration and the Personnel Section. Lots of detail on Sick Slips, managing the unit fund, running the company mess, duty rosters, and more. Maybe some flavor to be found there but nothing on organization or tactics. Still no luck on the Pentomic Division.

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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
I will start working on a timeline of World tension. Then there is the possibility given the Berlin Blockade and the Korean War for the balloon to go up in 1950, in which case, you are looking at World War 2 plus 5 years. Not that much difference in the Army units, except for tanks, but a lot of difference for the Air Force and Navy, with the introduction of the jet aircraft.
I was thinking that 1951 would be a plausible start point. The Chinese intervention is a bigger surprise than in reality, 10th Corps is cut off at Chosin blocked from retreating and evacuating from Wonson, More 8th Army units than just the 2nd ID are overrun and fragments are retreating rather than delaying, MacArthur convinces Truman to use atomic weapons on the Yalu crossing points to cut supply lines (bit of a stretch but maybe plausible if you remember that China doesn't have the bomb yet and this is a limited tactical strike) and the Soviets respond by committing troops there AND mobilizing the Western military districts and events unfold from there.

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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
The World would also be a lot different, as the de-colonization of the UK and France would not really have started. The other factor would be that there would be a lot fewer strategic nuclear weapons around. The USSR would be in a world of hurt with respect to mounting attacks on the Continental US.
I think that is the most fascinating part. Eastern Europe has not had the economic stimulus the West received so rebuilding is still underway. Unrest simmering in Hungary would explode sooner than 1956. Maybe the Czechs too after that. Yugoslavia still under Tito is much different. Still active insurgency in Greece supported from Albania. Communists active in Italy and France too. The Chinese revolution is just recently done so there are potentials for insurgency there with help from the US and the Nationalists on Tiawan. France has problems in North Africa and Indochina and their economy hasn't fully recovered yet. As you said, the UK has problems in Malaya and elsewhere. They would want to defend Hong Kong and Singapore drawing troops from Europe. But the UK has relationships with the Poles, Greek, and Yugoslavs from WWII so they have an opening to create problems for the Soviets in a lot of areas. Look at how the Turkish Brigade fought in Korea and imagine what a Soviet invasion from Armenia would be facing. There is so much there to work with and the strategic situation is incredibly complex and difficult and fascinating.
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Old November 9th, 2017, 11:19 AM
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The British will attempt to keep all colonial conflicts on a low burner and shoestring budgets., with extensive use of special forces more to thwart their opponents than military destroy and/or humiliate them.

Possibly might be inclined to encourage coups where feasible, or get the CIA involved.
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Old November 9th, 2017, 10:52 PM
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Re-reading the opening introduction by the editor for the book, Dropshot, he covers some of the evaluations done in 1946 through 1948 as to the threat posed by the Soviet Union to the US, and one of the areas mentioned a fair amount is the potential for Soviet use of biological agents on the US and allies. The Soviets did capture the personnel of the Japanese Unit 731 in Manchuria, which was Japan's biological weapon development center. I have a couple of files of data on them, and it is the stuff of nightmares. Why they were declassified I have no idea. However, I am not sure if you would really want to introduce such weaponry into a game situation.

I have found some other stuff online that might be useful. Links to follow.
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