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The Fleet Ship designs, strategies, and tactics.

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  #1  
Old June 16th, 2020, 11:21 AM
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Default Imperial marine fighter / attack craft

Does the 3I's marine "force" have its own squadrons of fighters and attack craft?

Just curious.
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Old June 16th, 2020, 06:22 PM
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Depends as to how you define flying tanks.

Arguably, Marine Corps fighters might only be deployed on dedicated assault carriers, rather than attached to default naval aerospace wings.
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Old June 16th, 2020, 06:34 PM
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I'm going to say yes, but I can't point to anything in canon to support that (lack of time to research it). The Marines are intended to be self sufficient which I'm pretty sure includes a modest fleet arm including transports, drop craft and support fighters.
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Old June 16th, 2020, 06:44 PM
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Traditionally, I think not, but T5 allows Flight School for Marine and Army, as well as Naval, characters. Still, only the Navy has a Flight Branch.

IMTU they operate vehicles, but spacecraft including small craft generally belong to the Navy.


Edit:
The Spinward Marches Campaign has the 4518th Lift Infantry Regiment include a small flight wing and even a few SDBs. They are not Marines, but are more or less used as Marines, so might resemble Marine organisation.

JTAS#12 has a TOC of a Marine Task Force (battalion?) with some information of the regiment, but no spacecraft mentioned.

Last edited by AnotherDilbert; June 16th, 2020 at 07:16 PM..
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Old June 16th, 2020, 07:23 PM
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Interesting. Thanks for the replies.
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Old June 16th, 2020, 08:57 PM
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In GT Ground Forces, it mentions that Marines do operate fighter and COACC squadrons, with the missions of interdiction and close support. Full entry is on page 47.
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Old June 17th, 2020, 04:01 AM
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No, the Imperial Star Marines are more akin to the UK Royal Marines than the USMC. The IN provides the ships and support spacecraft they may need, the Marines do operate smallcraft which are indistinguishable from gunships (see LBB4 Mercenary to see where I am paraphrasing that from), gunships (gravtanks), and APCs (troop transport gunships (gravAPCs)

According to Adventure 1 the Marines on board can operate the ship's boat - a 6g drive laser and missile rack toting ship's boat is a pretty good assault craft).

And this leads me to the whole flight school contradiction, which is a result of MT changing the rules.

Flight School is for spaceship and starship pilots - those with pilot 1. You do not need pilot skill to operate gunships or assault craft. Heavily armed smallcraft would require ship's boat skill not pilot, while gravtanks and grav APCs require vehicle skill.

By allowing Army and Marine characters to attend Flight School MT/T5 is changing the setting paradigm by indicating that Army and Marines have need for their own starship pilots. HG makes no mention of Marine candidates let alone Army candidates for flight school.
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Old June 17th, 2020, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
The IN provides the ships and support spacecraft they may need, the Marines do operate smallcraft which are indistinguishable from gunships (see LBB4 Mercenary to see where I am paraphrasing that from) ...
No, it says HiTech "Gunships ... are virtually indistinguishable from orbital craft" in the context of "All vehicles have sufficient free-flight performance that ground combat vehicles effectively no longer exist, having merged with aircraft". This applies to the Army just as much as the Marines.

Orbital is not spacecraft. Even the humble air/raft can achieve orbital flight. Small craft are deep space capable, e.g. for flights to moons or distant planets, something grav vehicles are not suited for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
And this leads me to the whole flight school nonsense.
Flight School teaches Ship's Boat in addition to Pilot, at least in CT & MT.

Flight School leads automatically to the Flight Branch, presumably related to the Flight Section of starship crews, i.e. the people who fly small craft. Note that Flight Branch skill table offers Ship's Boat by default and Pilot as a modified result. Flight School is not for starship pilots alone.

The IN may prefer its small craft pilots to be certified for interstellar flight, somewhat similar to, according to what I have heard, the USAF insists its drone operators are qualified pilots.
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Old June 17th, 2020, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
No, it says HiTech "Gunships ... are virtually indistinguishable from orbital craft" in the context of "All vehicles have sufficient free-flight performance that ground combat vehicles effectively no longer exist, having merged with aircraft". This applies to the Army just as much as the Marines.
That's why I said I was paraphrasing...

Quote:
Orbital is not spacecraft. Even the humble air/raft can achieve orbital flight. Small craft are deep space capable, e.g. for flights to moons or distant planets, something grav vehicles are not suited for.
Small craft are ground to orbit vessels too, therefore the term orbital applies to them.



Quote:
Flight School teaches Ship's Boat in addition to Pilot, at least in CT & MT.
It does indeed, but you can fail the roll to learn it, whereas if you graduate you automatically receive pilot 1 as a minimum

Quote:
Flight School leads automatically to the Flight Branch, presumably related to the Flight Section of starship crews, i.e. the people who fly small craft. Note that Flight Branch skill table offers Ship's Boat by default and Pilot as a modified result. Flight School is not for starship pilots alone.
Yes it is - if you graduate you receive pilot 1 minimum. You can learn ship's boat skill all over the skill tables. You do not need to be flight branch to learn ship's boat or operate the ship's boat. The flight department is for the flying of the ship, the smallcraft operators are not necessarily part of the flight branch.

Quote:
The IN may prefer its small craft pilots to be certified for interstellar flight, somewhat similar to, according to what I have heard, the USAF insists its drone operators are qualified pilots.
I very much doubt that. But then - why is a pilot capable of pressing the buttons for the computer to fly the space/star ship and a smallcarft, and yet a small craft operator can not press the buttons for the computer to fly a space/star ship?
Then along comes someone with JoT skill and can do both

I'm not sure who's argument is supported by what it has to say in the ship construction rules on crew:
Quote:
All officers are drawn from the flight branch, and all petty officers and ratings are from the technical services branch or the crew.
So is every small craft 'pilot' an officer? Is every small craft combat craft 'piloted' by an officer?
Sadly for my argument it says in the sentence immediately before the previous quote:
Quote:
Pilots must be officers, and maintenance personnel are generally ratings.
So every navy pilot is an officer and may or may not be a graduate from flight school.
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Last edited by mike wightman; June 17th, 2020 at 09:07 AM..
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Old June 17th, 2020, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Small craft are ground to orbit vessels too, therefore the term orbital applies to them.
Yes, small craft are orbital capable, but not all orbital craft are spacecraft (small craft).

Hence calling something indistinguishable from orbital craft is not the same as calling it indistinguishable from spacecraft.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
It does indeed, but you can fail the roll to learn it, whereas if you graduate you automatically receive pilot 1 as a minimum
In MT graduates of Flight School receives both Ship's Boat-1 and Pilot-1 automatically (but may receive more than Pilot-1).


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
You can learn ship's boat skill all over the skill tables. You do not need to be flight branch to learn ship's boat or operate the ship's boat.
A bit of an exaggeration: one entry in a (albeit widely available) skill list is not "all over the skill tables".


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
The flight department is for the flying of the ship, the smallcraft operators are not necessarily part of the flight branch.
That is directly counter to the quote you provided:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HG, p33
Flight Section: If the ship has any launched craft, it should have a flight control officer, crew for each craft, and at least one maintenance person per craft. ... Pilots must be officers, ...
All officers are drawn from the flight branch, ...
All small craft pilots are officers, and all officers are from the Flight Branch. Hence all small craft pilots are from the Flight Branch.

There is no defined "flight department"? Ship's pilots are presumably included in the Command Section, or Bridge Crew in MT. The Flight Section specifically only fly carried craft.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
So every navy pilot is an officer and may or may not be a graduate from flight school.
That seems to be the case for small craft, yes.

With A1 I tend to assume that the helmsmen of larger ships are not necessarily officers. Using LBB2, ratings are just as likely as officers to gain pilot skill.

The Command Section specifies two Navigation officers and may (or may not) contain personnel from the Flight Branch. The Navigation officers may presumably be pilots from the Flight Branch, navigators from the Line Branch, or even just watch standing officers supervising the POs actually performing the tasks.
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