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T4 - Marc Miller's Traveller Discussion of T4 - Marc Miller's Traveller from Imperium Games and the Milieu 0 setting.

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  #11  
Old October 28th, 2015, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
Doesn't mean you couldn't make some access ways tighter and some rooms crampier.

You then can recruit from the shorter demographics of the population.
Or recruit hivers and build 1.5 meter deck heights ... fitting 200 dtons of ship in a 100 dton hull.
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Old October 28th, 2015, 11:52 AM
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Hello aramis,

First, I clicked on the quote button on your post aramis using both IE and Firefox in both browsers the reply pane opened without any material being quoted.

Next, thank you for supplying the CT LBB 2 Starships 1977/1980 or 2E and CT Supplement 7 1980 page numbers with the deck plan illustration and all the other work to determine the dimensions to fit 14 m^3 of LHyd.

My take on CT LBB 2 Starships 2E p. 13

Quote:
"The Hull: Hulls are identified by their mass displacement, expressed in tons. As a rough guide, one ton equals 14 cubic meters (the volume of one ton of liquid hydrogen)."
is that a rough guide does not mean that the hull mass displacement of one ton is exactly equal to 14 m^3 or the volume of one ton of LHyd. My take was further reinforced by LBB 2 p. 21 and Supplement 7 p. 5 with the words of about and approximately.

Using the dimension information from both LBB 2 Starships 2E and Supplement 7 the volume I concluded by using 1.5 x 3 x 3 or 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 4 = 13.5 rounded up to fit the roughly 14 m^3 of LHyd to equal one mass displacement ton.

However, the design tables do support the use of 14 m^3 equaling one ton, which supports the idea that the about 3 m needed some clarification.

My methods are less ambitious than the one aramis used to figure out how many 1.5 x 1.5 x 3 squares I needed to hold 14 m^3 of LHyd which is approximately 2.0741 squares.

After I got a spreadsheet application using the dimensions of 1.5 x 1.5 x 3 from LBB 2 and did a goal seek analysis. The result of the calculation to get a volume of 14 m^3 required a height of approximately 6.2222 m. Starting with the dimensions of 1.5 x 3 x 3 the goal seek calculation changed the height to approximately 3.1111.

I have some PDF copies of MT and TNE books which does help a bit in looking up information. Unfortunately, I still have been unable to check the purchase of Traveller CD-ROMs off my wish list.

Thank you again for the reply.
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Old October 28th, 2015, 12:13 PM
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Hello again warwizard,

Thank you for another reply.

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Originally Posted by warwizard View Post
Re the external armor, as the jump volume is everything from the outer skin in... I count the exterior armor as well.
Here is another example of rule interpretation that has kept design Traveller discussions going.

The CT rules, IIRC, do not mention that armor takes up volume that affects the jump drive inserting the ship into jump space. However, the rules do indicate that carrying external objects like drop tanks, which add their volume to the hull, alters the jump distance only if they are retained during the jump.

My interpretation based on the information, which may be out to lunch, is that CT armor does not affect a hulls internal volume.
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Old October 28th, 2015, 12:21 PM
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Hello Condottiere and atpollard,

IIRC some of the alien modules made modifications to the original deck plans to take into account the differences if the body shapes of the various races.

If anyone has the CT CD they might be able to confirm, hopefully, that I'm not out in left field.
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Old October 28th, 2015, 12:56 PM
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The centaurs need a lot of space, I vaguely recall two or three times the volume listed.
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Old October 28th, 2015, 04:24 PM
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Hello again Condottiere,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
The centaurs need a lot of space, I vaguely recall two or three times the volume listed.
I managed to did out my FFE reprints of the Alien Modules.

Traveller Alien Module 2 K'kree page 13 deck plan height is 6 meters rather than 3 meters and are flattened spheres which appears to be domed shape. Inside the hull there is 1 1/2 decks the main full deck is where the crew lives and works and the half deck is used for equipment and fuel. Other differences are standard hulls are given in 1,000 displacement ton increments and the interiors are generally one big space.

Looks like I was in error on the other seven modules after a quick look.
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Old October 28th, 2015, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
Hello again warwizard,

Thank you for another reply.



Here is another example of rule interpretation that has kept design Traveller discussions going.

The CT rules, IIRC, do not mention that armor takes up volume that affects the jump drive inserting the ship into jump space. However, the rules do indicate that carrying external objects like drop tanks, which add their volume to the hull, alters the jump distance only if they are retained during the jump.

My interpretation based on the information, which may be out to lunch, is that CT armor does not affect a hulls internal volume.
Thank you for the prompt response.

Well as this is the T4 discussion area, I was not going to bring in other editions into the discussion, but as this is your thread please feel free. CT and previously mentioned TNE tended to abstract armor and structure but Book 5 of CT did charge you 2% of volume per level of armor as I recall, so there is precedent in CT to account for additional armor beyond the basic hull, which was abstracted to take no volume, though one could argue the rather large bridge also accounted for the basic hull's material volume.

For T4 I have a ship designed at 100 Dt TL 8 hull that uses 26.51m3 for the hull volume which is a little less than 2 Dt, and that's with a configuration that nearly doubles the surface area, hence the material volume of the hull. so we're talking at most 2 Dt of a 100 ton hull or <2%. Of course as you scale up the % goes up due to internal bracing, as well as when you pile on the G's.
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Old October 28th, 2015, 10:27 PM
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Evening PDT warwizard,

Oops, I forgot about LBB 5 since I answered a question about displacement tons earlier. Thank you for the correction.

Per Guy Garnett and David J. Golden T4 QSDS and SSDS used TNE FF&S. Further T4 tweaked TNE FF&S.

Unfortunately, I and many others do have a tendency to include the other Traveller rule sets. However, the biggest issue is the tangents that occur which is not that far off from the topic of jump drives yet, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warwizard View Post
Thank you for the prompt response.

Well as this is the T4 discussion area, I was not going to bring in other editions into the discussion, but as this is your thread please feel free. CT and previously mentioned TNE tended to abstract armor and structure but Book 5 of CT did charge you 2% of volume per level of armor as I recall, so there is precedent in CT to account for additional armor beyond the basic hull, which was abstracted to take no volume, though one could argue the rather large bridge also accounted for the basic hull's material volume.

For T4 I have a ship designed at 100 Dt TL 8 hull that uses 26.51m3 for the hull volume which is a little less than 2 Dt, and that's with a configuration that nearly doubles the surface area, hence the material volume of the hull. so we're talking at most 2 Dt of a 100 ton hull or <2%. Of course as you scale up the % goes up due to internal bracing, as well as when you pile on the G's.
Personally I have small issues with the abstraction of what the bridge volume covers. I will agree that some of the total internal bracing is included in the bridge volume, but anything else goes with the other spaces of the ship.

Again thank you for your reply.
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Old October 28th, 2015, 11:26 PM
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Back to the original posting, yes the way they wrote that section was just a result of restating everything per joules and m3 instead of MW and Dt.

The math works out pretty close I think the .2 of the 25.2 is due to using more precision in T4 FF&S. (I'm guilty of calculating to 5 decimal points as I use a spreadsheet with automatic formulas written into the cells whenever I can.)

We can discuss some interesting ship designs concepts I've had if you would like or we can start a new thread.

Gary
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Old October 29th, 2015, 06:12 PM
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Hello warwizard,

My apologies for not replying earlier, unfortunately the area where I live lost power and I just got home to find the power restored.

Quote:
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Back to the original posting, yes the way they wrote that section was just a result of restating everything per joules and m3 instead of MW and Dt.
For the jump drive T4 FF&S added two tweaks not used in TNE FF&S design. The topic of this post was confirming that my understanding of

T4 Book B p. 12

"The amount of energy required to initiate a jump is equal to 64MJ per cubic meter per parsec jumped. This energy must be provided to the drive in an hour or less (meaning that a starship must have 0.018MW of power plant per cubic meter per jump number)."

"Once in jump space, the jump drive maintains a small bubble of real space around the ship, using power input to the jump drive from the power plant (0.018MW of power plant per cubic meter per jump number)."

I believe the above implies that a power plant installed on a 100 displacement ton (TD) hull capable of jumping 1 parsec must have a minimum output of 19.6 MW to provided the 89,600MJ of energy to initiate the jump.

I'm still not sure about being on the right track with the above.

The other difference is calculating statistics for a jump grid.

Since I've stalled in my T4 efforts I've been working on other stuff, but I'm sure there are other differences.

Quote:
The math works out pretty close I think the .2 of the 25.2 is due to using more precision in T4 FF&S. (I'm guilty of calculating to 5 decimal points as I use a spreadsheet with automatic formulas written into the cells whenever I can.)
In my spreadsheets I usually round to four decimal places unless an example shows a different number of digits. While waiting for response on the TML posts I began working with a forum member trying to up date the combination spreadsheet Rb-98r4 found in the downloadable files section. Unfortunately, that died out because of differences of interpretation of the rules and rounding.

Quote:
We can discuss some interesting ship designs concepts I've had if you would like or we can start a new thread.

Gary
If we do start discussing ship designs we should probably start a new thread and I'll try very hard not to get fixated on a tangent.
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