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Cepheus General General discussion of Cepheus Engine products.

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  #21  
Old July 16th, 2018, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Dray View Post

Cargo Handling -- Yawn. And this seems like "skill tax." Do refs make players roll to handle cargo?
I keep this one around, but you only see it on a Robots description card under programing....
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  #22  
Old July 17th, 2018, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Adam Dray View Post
Missed this before. Reasons:

Cargo Handling -- Yawn. And this seems like "skill tax." Do refs make players roll to handle cargo?

Combat Engineering -- Use either Explosives or an appropriate Engineer skill.

Field Artillery Gunnery -- Is this really needed? Can't it be a Turret or Bay weapon on the back of a trailer or whatever?

Melee/Brawling -- Subsumed under Melee/Unarmed.

Fly/Ornithopter -- I really have a hard time imagining needing this.

Science/Astronomy -- Covered by Physical Science/Astrophysics.
Yes, some do have rolls to get cargo loaded. And at times, to overload the cargo bay, or to hide contraband in the cargo bay.

Combat Engineering is less about the destruction tech and more about the improvised fortifications, the revetments, quick but useful bridges, mine-clearing, and anti-personnel passive impediments (razorwire, etc, both removal and placement).

Blowing things up is a demolition tech, not a combat engineer. (Ok, most CbE's will know how to pick the spots to hit...) Separate specialty and skillset. May be in the same unit, tho'...

As for ornithopters...
Youtube.com: Human powered ornithopter
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  #23  
Old July 17th, 2018, 12:03 PM
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Isn't Engineer sufficient for combat engineering?
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  #24  
Old July 17th, 2018, 12:04 PM
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I'm comfortable not having ornithopters in my setting.
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  #25  
Old July 17th, 2018, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Dray View Post
Isn't Engineer sufficient for combat engineering?
No. Different skill sets.

Ship's Engineer, likewise.

Combat Engineer is fast and temporary contructs.

Civil Engineer is long-lasting structures that don't move significantly.

Naval Architect in the real world is floating structures of various kinds. In game, is design of starships and spacecraft, instead.

Mechanical Engineer is largely associate with HVAC, plumbing, and ground vehicles, but covers more.

Ship's engineer is maintenance of and operation of ships drives and ship's power plants - but has no design role.
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  #26  
Old July 17th, 2018, 04:51 PM
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Wikipedia breaks down combat engineering into a handful of disciplines:

Mobility (clearing obstacles and building roads & bridges)
Countermobility (creating obstacles, sapping roads & bridges, planting mines)
Handling explosives (demolition, and clearing mines)
Building defense structures (fences & fortifications)

These seem well covered by skills:

Mobility: Civil Engineer
Countermobility: Civil Engineer, Explosives
Handling Explosives: Explosives
Building defense structures: Civil Engineer

I still don't feel like it warrants its own skill.
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  #27  
Old July 17th, 2018, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Dray View Post
Wikipedia breaks down combat engineering into a handful of disciplines:

Mobility (clearing obstacles and building roads & bridges)
Countermobility (creating obstacles, sapping roads & bridges, planting mines)
Handling explosives (demolition, and clearing mines)
Building defense structures (fences & fortifications)

These seem well covered by skills:

Mobility: Civil Engineer
Countermobility: Civil Engineer, Explosives
Handling Explosives: Explosives
Building defense structures: Civil Engineer

I still don't feel like it warrants its own skill.
If you're trusting Wikipedia, well, that's mistake #1.

I'll note, in counterpoint:
Demolitions work is a separate MOS from both Civil Engineer (Enlisted CEN aka constructionman) and from Combat Engineer (CBE). Dem Techs are assigned to both types of units, but are a separate specialty.

The Army, which actually uses them, keeps them as separate training regimes. Not just in the Army, either. The USMC does, as well.

When you need a bridge tomorrow, you call the Combat Engineers. When you need it to last more than a month, you call the civil engineer, who has an officer work with a draftsman to design it, and then the CEN enlisted build it, using different construction techniques from the CBE.

The vehicles used are also different. Civil Engineer asstes include the usual earthmovers. Combat Engineers use modified APCs, sometimes with dozer blades, sometimes with chain-beaters, and self-mobile bridges, and lots of shovel, axe, and chainsaw.

Just as you don't want the Civil Engineer/architect designing your automobile, you don't want the mechanical engineer designing your bridge. He lacks the correct knowledge base to do the job at lowest cost.

And the combat engineer isn't trained to design things at all. He's trained to jury-rig.
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  #28  
Old July 17th, 2018, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
If you're trusting Wikipedia, well, that's mistake #1.
Trust Wikipedia?
Trust random dude on COTI?

HRM.


Quote:
I'll note, in counterpoint:
Demolitions work is a separate MOS from both Civil Engineer (Enlisted CEN aka constructionman) and from Combat Engineer (CBE). Dem Techs are assigned to both types of units, but are a separate specialty.

The Army, which actually uses them, keeps them as separate training regimes. Not just in the Army, either. The USMC does, as well.
I'm sure your information about how the U.S. Army organizes combat engineering is accurate, but it isn't necessarily how every army organizes it, as the completely-not-trustworthy Wikipedia completely fabricates out of thin air.

I'm dubious about the usefulness of mapping MOSes to skills, too.


Quote:
When you need a bridge tomorrow, you call the Combat Engineers. When you need it to last more than a month, you call the civil engineer, who has an officer work with a draftsman to design it, and then the CEN enlisted build it, using different construction techniques from the CBE.
Sounds like the same skill, but one is rushing the job, which just increases the difficulty.

Quote:
Just as you don't want the Civil Engineer/architect designing your automobile, you don't want the mechanical engineer designing your bridge. He lacks the correct knowledge base to do the job at lowest cost.

And the combat engineer isn't trained to design things at all. He's trained to jury-rig.
Because Traveller is a military SF game, I can understand the extra focus on military skills like combat engineering.

Is there a separate Combat Medic (68W) vs. Doctor skill? I don't think so.
Is there a separate Combat Quartermaster (92A, I guess) vs. Steward skill? Nope.

A lot of military-oriented training gives you skill that is not as widely applicable to work in the real world as you'd like. My brother picked up some kind of communications equipment MOS in AIT and it was basically useless later.

Finally, does combat engineering come up in play often enough to warrant a separate skill for it? And if no PC has combat engineering and they need to build a quick bridge, is the referee really gonna say, "Sorry, your Mechanic skill and Civil Engineering skill aren't good enough. Maybe if you had drafting equipment and a few weeks..."?
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  #29  
Old July 17th, 2018, 07:34 PM
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To be more game focused, I've had more reason to call for Combat Engineering than Civil Engineering in play, by a large margin. And far more still for demolitions and EOD.
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  #30  
Old July 17th, 2018, 11:53 PM
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Good point. Travellers like to blow stuff up.
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