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The Fleet Ship designs, strategies, and tactics.

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  #101  
Old August 24th, 2019, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Why can't a tanker be fitted with the same pumps as a drop tank and thus achive the same fuel transfer rate?

If a drop tank can feed its fuel into the jump fuel process why can't a tanker?

This is something that has long made little sense for the other fuel tank solutions.
It's not the pumps, it's the hoses. Drop tanks (and dedicated fuel shuttles in specific-to-the-shuttle cradles) can have direct ports to the main fuel pumps., and those are hard fittings.

Flexible connections, when not straight, induce turbulence, and further, generally have lower maximum pressures, resulting in lower fuel flow. ALso, some forms generate turbulence even while straight, due to the expansion joints.
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  #102  
Old August 24th, 2019, 08:25 PM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flykiller View Post
could game it out, you know. once put up a system for playing out all of this here.
Quite easily done.

Take the Sol system for example. We have Terra and four outer GGs as main refuelling points.

The defender has 100 pts of combat power. You can expect a main attack, or a raid passing through. You can place as many detachments as you want, anywhere you want, e.g. in orbit (close or 100D) around the refuelling points. If you want to reposition the detachments, detail a time table.

Example:
1: 100 pts in close orbit around Terra.
2: 20 pts each in 100D orbit around Terra, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.

Decide. Post.


Intruder mission to follow...
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  #103  
Old August 24th, 2019, 11:45 PM
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turbulence
... uh ... well, that's not mentioned in lbb 1-6 or tcs ... neither is there any mention of being "too close" to a jumping ship causing damage to the proximity ship.

seems very straight-forward that if a drop tank works, then a mobile drop tank (ship) would work too.
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  #104  
Old August 25th, 2019, 04:28 AM
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In the Traveller context, concentrating a large number of tankers for a small raiding strike group is viable, doing so for a battle fleet will denude the entire Sector of their mobile refuelling assets, and will provoke the mobilization and massing of opposing counter forces, if not pre-emptive strikes of their own, covert or otherwise.
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  #105  
Old August 25th, 2019, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
In the Traveller context, concentrating a large number of tankers for a small raiding strike group is viable, doing so for a battle fleet will denude the entire Sector of their mobile refuelling assets, and will provoke the mobilization and massing of opposing counter forces, if not pre-emptive strikes of their own, covert or otherwise.



Exactly so, I am certainly not arguing for a main force breakthrough (although years of stalemate may make an attempt on that scale more justifiable then continued hostilities).


The goal of the raiding fleet is to force an opponent to split up defenses at primary conventional range targets to ease a conventional fleet attack, or suffer unacceptable back line logistical/economical/political damage. Potentially a cavalry screening/scouting force for the main fleet to root out and prepare for advances, or conversely a disruption/logistics cut fleet against the enemies' raiding/main force.



The raiding fleet needs to be large enough to demolish local SDBs/patrol fleets, spread out and scout/kill mercantile/system traffic, and destroy orbital military/industrial/shipyard assets without engaging in a protracted siege/trading fire with planetary defenses.


As such it's an adjunct to using the primary fleet conventionally and allowing it to do it's job.


I'd say 1/10th of the budget at most for them.


Bigger issue missing to me- repair/recovery infrastructure for ships too damaged to jump home, but salvageable particularly as repair is so much faster then building new. Mobile shipyards/docks or deployable bases is a major fleet element missing from most Traveller empire games, the equivalent of outpost or frontier maintenance in Imperium.
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  #106  
Old August 25th, 2019, 10:44 PM
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years of stalemate
given the utter pourosity of traveller "borders" and the impossibility of maintaining any kind of "front line", just how is a stalemate arrived at?

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Mobile shipyards/docks or deployable bases is a major fleet element missing from most Traveller empire games
a blatant failure, yes. one notes that fleet combat actions are so much more exciting than repair logistics. imtu I pay careful attention to yard capacity and just say that any mobile yards are not extra but rather are existing yard capacity deployed forward (i.e. no net gain), so while imtu there are repair ships their primary job is to get damaged boats moving again and back to a full yard, otherwise the boat just gets nuked.

Last edited by flykiller; August 25th, 2019 at 11:15 PM..
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  #107  
Old August 26th, 2019, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by flykiller View Post
given the utter pourosity of traveller "borders" and the impossibility of maintaining any kind of "front line", just how is a stalemate arrived at?
What counts is the 'correlation of forces', you could get a stalemate where you actually have fewer ships overall but not enough to break through key PD sites on critical planets/bases. Conversely, a small enough border with large enough empires on either side could yield big fleets in each system. It depends.

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a blatant failure, yes. one notes that fleet combat actions are so much more exciting than repair logistics. imtu I pay careful attention to yard capacity and just say that any mobile yards are not extra but rather are existing yard capacity deployed forward (i.e. no net gain), so while imtu there are repair ships their primary job is to get damaged boats moving again and back to a full yard, otherwise the boat just gets nuked.

I've been finalizing my CT/HG crossover and one of the key aspects is engineering drama and a redo on damage. With scaling the crew losses to something like HGs, I'm realizing having active crew on salvageable ships is a huge deal (hence yes you do need shuttles) and destroying the too far gone, hence scuttling rules.
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Last edited by McPerth; August 26th, 2019 at 07:04 AM.. Reason: fixing quote
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  #108  
Old August 26th, 2019, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
I mean, one can asume that tankers may serve (so to say) as drop tanks, moving away from the supported ship while he has the power in its capacitors, before jumping (I guess there wil lbe time enough to go farther than the ships jumping danger zone). AFAIK this is neither allowed nor forbiden by the rules (again, being quite uncelar about details)...
We've talked this to death to no solution.

What's the difference between a "drop tank" (i.e. a big box filled with fuel temporarily connected to ship and ejected before jump) and a "drop tank with an m-drive and small crew".

If drop tanks work at all, if a drop tank can provide XX% of the jump fuel (whether that's 100% or not), then there's no reason POWERED drop tanks can't be used.

The only real suggestion is that somehow normal drop tanks are destroyed on jump.

Otherwise, they're simply discarded and, again, no reason they couldn't be recovered, and if they can be recovered, no reason they can't be powered.

And once they're powered, they're now "fuel shuttles".

So, simply, I have to assume that drop tanks are destroyed on use. Some aspect of the jump event with the dropped tank nearby destroys the tank. And the tanks simply can not be moved far enough away from the jumped ship in time.

Mind, none of this makes sense to me. But that's the assumption.

Otherwise, I can readily see large mega-corp merchant ships using this technology on mains to get high jump performance out of ships with small amounts of jump fuel. I can simply imagine it's worth the money to have an infrastructure that supports such a thing and tank recovery to facilitate large ships jumping.

I actually did the math on it a long time ago, and it "worked out" using TNE designs. The idea of getting a J4 cargo ship with only 10% of the hull consumed by fuel. At a certain scale, it works.
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  #109  
Old August 26th, 2019, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Planning to abandon the tankers would be very expensive, so need a very tempting target.
It's simply a contingency. I'm sure given the choice between losing a tanker and losing a battle cruiser, the calculus is probably pretty straightforward.

The other problem, of course, is that ship build times are based on raw tonnage (thus a 100,000 ton tanker takes just as long to build as a 100,000 ton battle cruiser, even those the tanks is 90% empty). But that doesn't make much sense either.
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  #110  
Old August 26th, 2019, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
It's absolutely necessary. If you arrive piecemeal in range of an enemy your fleet dies, basically without returning fire.

Even if you are a few hours out from an enemy they can close the distance while the first few ships arrive, then kill the rest as they arrive.

It's an easy way to lose to an inferior force.
Not if you park far enough away.

Remember, the reaction time is measured in weeks, not days or hours.

When a fleet arrives in system, barring an unplanned arrival, the fleet has the system "to themselves" for 2 weeks. It takes 2 weeks for the system to respond (i.e. jump out to get help, and then send that help). It has 2 weeks to deal with any internal forces and targets before anyone can react to their new presences.

So, parking the fleet a day or two out of maneuver range of internal forces is no big deal. Still plenty of time to party before the parents come home.
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