Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > General Traveller Discussions > Imperial Interstellar Scout Service

Imperial Interstellar Scout Service Details of the worlds of the Imperium (and beyond).

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old March 1st, 2019, 03:10 AM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 16,711
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jawillroy View Post
At the same time, don't those factories still depend on resources from other countries produced at lower levels of automation? We might have some gee-whiz-awesome factories assembling a car, but you've still got assembly lines producing the individual components elsewhere.
Nope.
Resource harvesting uses the same automated machinery to reduce the workforce required.

Look up strip mining in Australia for example.
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old March 1st, 2019, 03:14 AM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 16,711
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
The agricultural production increases are already cranked in, and I did allow for Tech Level 8+ at population levels of the tens of millions. There is a limit as to how much food you can produce per acre no matter how advanced you get, unless you can produce continuously, which is not cheap unless you are in the tropics on a fairly standard atmosphere planet.
You build multistory farms with controlled microclimates to allow continuous production.

Quote:
You still need a certain amount of people in infrastructure work and also as the Tech Level rises, you are going to have increases in service industries. I see a population in the tens of millions, and the higher tens of millions at that, as the minimum for very high Tech Levels.
I can see a time when there are only a handful of people served by millions of robots...
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old March 1st, 2019, 03:22 AM
Carlobrand Carlobrand is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,604
Gallery : 1
Visit Carlobrand's Blog
Carlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected Citizen
Default

Below TL5, the large fraction of the population involved in agriculture - and the fact they're using animals that can be bred instead of something that has to be built - insulates a culture from technological collapse. Famines and plagues may decimate a population, but the farmer behind his plow doesn't care whether there's a city capable of producing Gothic plate or only a town capable of producing Visby armor; he just needs a few people who know how to locate, refine, and work iron enough to get him the plow he needs.

The real core of technology at that level isn't the art or the weapons, it's the agricultural refinements: the thundering invader may cause great societal disruption, but it doesn't tend to make the farmers forget how to rotate crops or make a horse collar once they've learned that. Knowledge is being spread parent to child, by word and example, rather than through some vulnerable technological system, and that's a pretty robust method for holding on to knowledge when large fractions of the population are all basically doing the same thing.
__________________
Disclaimer
Comments made are for the purpose of offering alternative campaign settings for consideration. The writer acknowledges that Traveller is intended to emulate certain common science fiction tropes and that, in the course of emulating those tropes and providing a better playing experience, some liberties must be taken with science. No statement by the writer should be interpreted as constituting a criticism of the game on that basis ... except for that bit about Virus. Dude, really?!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old March 1st, 2019, 11:21 AM
jawillroy jawillroy is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 946
Gallery : 0
jawillroy has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
I can see a time when there are only a handful of people served by millions of robots...
A hellish existence.

And to what end?

I can see a robot-driven installation as a necessary link in a chain of high-tech worlds, sure. A dangerous climate hampers access to necessary resources, so set up a robot mine or what have you, a robot port facility to handle the product. That's a high-tech mechanized facility to meet an external demand, with repair and maintenance resources imported from similarly high-tech worlds.

But how self sufficient is it, really? If the demand for the resource stops, then what's the real tech level of what's left? A world of inert robots waiting to fulfill order for unobtainium that are no longer arriving?

If the world in question has the raw resources in abundance for robot makers to fabricate everything they need on site to maintain the whole fleet of robots to make... what? How's that world *not* going to get settled to capacity by living sophonts instead?

And if it's a luxury existence you imagine for your handful of humans with millions or robot servitors... Millions aren't needed for that, surely. How does that work?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old March 1st, 2019, 11:38 AM
jawillroy jawillroy is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 946
Gallery : 0
jawillroy has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Nope.
Resource harvesting uses the same automated machinery to reduce the workforce required.

Look up strip mining in Australia for example.
Automated mining in Australia stops if A) there ceased to be a demand for the resources being mined or B) the resources run out. OR C, it becomes cheaper to get the resources elsewhere.

If for "Australia" we read "the sixth planet of Star X" with a population of 500 (or five!) and a massive agglomeration of tech level 12 robots which no longer have any reason to be producing what they're programmed to produce, I'm not convinced that for all intents and purposes that's really a tech level 12 world anymore.

Last edited by jawillroy; March 1st, 2019 at 03:14 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old March 1st, 2019, 03:33 PM
whartung whartung is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,640
Gallery : 0
whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jawillroy View Post
If for "Australia" we read "the sixth planet of Star X" with a population of 500 (or five!) and a massive agglomeration of tech level 12 robots which no longer have any reason to be producing what they're programmed to produce, I'm not convinced that for all intents and purposes that's really a tech level 12 world anymore.
No, it's now an X starport with 0 population and, oh, all of the iron missing.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old March 1st, 2019, 06:33 PM
jawillroy jawillroy is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 946
Gallery : 0
jawillroy has disabled reputation
Default

So perhaps this formulation works:

A low-tech, low population world is non-industrial because the population is insufficient to support industrialization;

A high-tech, non industrial world has a low population because its specialization and automation permit it.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old March 1st, 2019, 09:29 PM
Timerover51's Avatar
Timerover51 Timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,499
Gallery : 4
Visit Timerover51's Blog
Timerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jawillroy View Post
So perhaps this formulation works:

A low-tech, low population world is non-industrial because the population is insufficient to support industrialization;
That would be a very reasonable characterization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jawillroy View Post
A high-tech, non industrial world has a low population because its specialization and automation permit it.
I would argue for a world dependent upon imports to maintain its high tech level. Otherwise, a self-sufficient high-tech world should be an "industrial" one.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Nov. 22 Blog Entry-Sword of Cepheus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old March 1st, 2019, 11:02 PM
jawillroy jawillroy is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 946
Gallery : 0
jawillroy has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
I would argue for a world dependent upon imports to maintain its high tech level. Otherwise, a self-sufficient high-tech world should be an "industrial" one.
That's my thought, pretty much - or at least, something in that pop 7-8 grey area.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old March 1st, 2019, 11:13 PM
Carlobrand Carlobrand is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,604
Gallery : 1
Visit Carlobrand's Blog
Carlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jawillroy View Post
...

And if it's a luxury existence you imagine for your handful of humans with millions or robot servitors... Millions aren't needed for that, surely. How does that work?
Imagine the wargames you could play!

Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
...
I would argue for a world dependent upon imports to maintain its high tech level. Otherwise, a self-sufficient high-tech world should be an "industrial" one.
I would agree that a non-industrial high tech world would suffer gradual decay without imports. Between industrial and non-industrial, there might be worlds that find a sweet spot under the right conditions.
__________________
Disclaimer
Comments made are for the purpose of offering alternative campaign settings for consideration. The writer acknowledges that Traveller is intended to emulate certain common science fiction tropes and that, in the course of emulating those tropes and providing a better playing experience, some liberties must be taken with science. No statement by the writer should be interpreted as constituting a criticism of the game on that basis ... except for that bit about Virus. Dude, really?!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tech levels TheDS Non-Traveller Gaming 37 September 21st, 2019 04:33 PM
Tech Levels and Culture levels... Spinward Scout The Lone Star 9 February 18th, 2005 08:18 PM
Tech levels; what do they mean? Blue Ghost Imperial Research Station 4 June 3rd, 2004 03:03 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.