Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > Other Versions of Traveller > T4 - Marc Miller's Traveller

T4 - Marc Miller's Traveller Discussion of T4 - Marc Miller's Traveller from Imperium Games and the Milieu 0 setting.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old February 9th, 2019, 03:32 PM
Blue Ghost's Avatar
Blue Ghost Blue Ghost is offline
Knight
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Foster City, CA
Posts: 8,018
Gallery : 0
Visit Blue Ghost's Blog
Blue Ghost has disabled reputation
Default Space Opera verse Hard scifi

So, in the basic T4 book there's a picture of a bunch of NPCs being herded into an teleporter amongst the ruins of a city in the background. To me this doesn't smack of traditional guns and spaceships space opera, and where T4 is sort of post-Imperium territory, I'm curious of how much space opera is in Traveller verse hard scifi. And I bring this topic up here, because that picture has me curious about other hobbyists opinions.
__________________
Sir Ghost, Knight of Imperial occupied Terra, Sol.
Travels with Blue Ghost; musings of a knight of the Imperium.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old February 9th, 2019, 05:25 PM
Timerover51's Avatar
Timerover51 Timerover51 is online now
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,508
Gallery : 4
Visit Timerover51's Blog
Timerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
So, in the basic T4 book there's a picture of a bunch of NPCs being herded into an teleporter amongst the ruins of a city in the background. To me this doesn't smack of traditional guns and spaceships space opera, and where T4 is sort of post-Imperium territory, I'm curious of how much space opera is in Traveller verse hard scifi. And I bring this topic up here, because that picture has me curious about other hobbyists opinions.
While not a fan of T4, I do have the rules and found the picture. I would say that there is a fair amount of space opera in Traveller, starting with the Jump Drive, small size of power plants, and the personal energy guns. Basically, you have to come up with some way of getting to the stars to open up the Galaxy for exploration. Each author approaches the problem differently, and some mention it more than others. In Andre Norton, the ships travel from star to star without any mention of how it is done. Piper mentions the Dillingham Hyperdrive throwing the ship into another dimension, and that is a far as he goes. Pournelle has the Alderson Drive and Alderson Points to get to other star systems, so his is a bit more thoroughly worked out, but all of them are more or less space opera.

I use deuterium fusion plants as I think that is more likely to be functional first, and if you are going the cold fusion route, I think that is how it will work. Again, that is a bit of space opera. The same with Piper's nuclear to electric power systems. Then you have the plasma and fusion guns, which I have a lot of problems with, so I do not use them. However, blasters are so common in science fiction as to make energy weapons almost a must.

Traveller is space opera when needed and hard science when possible.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Nov. 22 Blog Entry-Sword of Cepheus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old February 9th, 2019, 05:48 PM
Blue Ghost's Avatar
Blue Ghost Blue Ghost is offline
Knight
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Foster City, CA
Posts: 8,018
Gallery : 0
Visit Blue Ghost's Blog
Blue Ghost has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
While not a fan of T4, I do have the rules and found the picture. *snip*
Traveller is space opera when needed and hard science when possible.
I'm kind of Travellered out at the moment. But I've had it told to me that Traveller is space opera time and again, and I accept that (perhaps begrudgingly in the past, but not really anymore), but this pic with its caption, and Adventure 11 or 12 (Secret of the Ancients) verse something like "The Argon Gambit" or "Prison Planet" kind of made me scratch my head some, but not anymore.

I saw Traveller as a product of the 70s scifi "revolution", and so when I read things like the TTA books or one of the Perry Rhoden books, I get a real sense of murkiness as to what space opera is, what the game was aiming for, and what you can do verse what is allowed.

And I guess your final line kind of sums it up. I'm sorry if I've been over this territory before. I should be trying to finish off Kip Thorne's book on black holes, but … I guess looking at that pic I'm confused as to what the game considers space opera verse hard scifi; time travel, parallel dimensions, super-tech aliens and the like.

It's not a big deal. I understand the game better. Thanks for the response.
__________________
Sir Ghost, Knight of Imperial occupied Terra, Sol.
Travels with Blue Ghost; musings of a knight of the Imperium.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old February 9th, 2019, 05:55 PM
kilemall kilemall is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,785
Gallery : 0
kilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizen
Default

Er.


I gotta say, I'm a bit confused.


Traveller was always meant as a toolkit so the answer is 'it can be as Space Opera or Hard SciFi as you want'.


As far as 'allows' go, I don't let anyone from Gygax or Miller on tell me what is allowed. My players have the final say about what they like far more then any given system or 'official ruling'.



Milieus particularly OTU and other published ATUs are a different kettle of fish re: allowed, as well as tournaments.
__________________
YUMV- Your Universe May Vary.
YOMD- Your Opinion May Differ.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old February 9th, 2019, 07:25 PM
GypsyComet's Avatar
GypsyComet GypsyComet is online now
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 3,782
Gallery : 3
GypsyComet Citizen++GypsyComet Citizen++GypsyComet Citizen++GypsyComet Citizen++
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
where T4 is sort of post-Imperium territory, I'm curious of how much space opera is in Traveller verse hard scifi.
Only in that it was written last. T4's era is at the beginning of the Third Imperium.

Traveller has been interpreted as "Hard" SF, but it is really only as hard as the SF that inspired it: Paperback SF of the 50s, 60s, and 70s was referred to as "Hard" because it generally established rules and stuck to them, but by today's standards much of that SF was "detailed" instead of being completely accurate according to science. There were certainly exceptions, but looking at Marc's novel makes it clear that the Traveller universe is a bit pulpier than many of us have been assuming.
__________________
We are all playing different games that happen to have the same name.

"Alright. Where did that Beaker get a cred stick?"
(Website down until further notice)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old February 9th, 2019, 07:34 PM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 16,719
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

Can you have hard science space opera? To me T4 was about discovery, exploration, alien ruins, exotic alien advanced technology verging on magic, but built on the familiar technological tropes of Traveller. Space opera but with consistent background technology that I can at least handwave and technobabble.

I bought the fate space (sci fi) toolkit pdf from drivethru today - I dislike the Fate system but it was cheap and a couple of the reviews said good things.

It has a really good idea - the plausibility scale of the setting.

Quote:
High-plausibility games emphasize creating a coherent, internally consistent
game universe in line with contemporary scientific knowledge and speculation.
Part of the fun of such games is getting the math right, even if only figuratively—
the aim is to speculate rigorously about the ramifications of scientific
developments and cultural conditions.
Quote:
In low-plausibility games, the players have a higher threshold for the willing
suspension of disbelief, meaning that they’re not terribly concerned about the
internal coherence of the game universe, so long as it’s dramatic or exciting. At its
core, Star Wars—with its dogfighting space fighters, psychic space samurai, and
giant space monsters—is the benchmark for low-plausibility games.
Quote:
Between these two styles falls most science fiction. In medium-plausibility games,
the emphasis frequently falls on exploring the consequences of some “What if?”
conceit. They often blend and bend genre, introducing one or two big, blackboxed
implausibilities in order to drive the questions in which the fiction is
interested.
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old February 10th, 2019, 10:29 AM
Blue Ghost's Avatar
Blue Ghost Blue Ghost is offline
Knight
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Foster City, CA
Posts: 8,018
Gallery : 0
Visit Blue Ghost's Blog
Blue Ghost has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyComet View Post
Only in that it was written last. T4's era is at the beginning of the Third Imperium.

Traveller has been interpreted as "Hard" SF, but it is really only as hard as the SF that inspired it: Paperback SF of the 50s, 60s, and 70s was referred to as "Hard" because it generally established rules and stuck to them, but by today's standards much of that SF was "detailed" instead of being completely accurate according to science. There were certainly exceptions, but looking at Marc's novel makes it clear that the Traveller universe is a bit pulpier than many of us have been assuming.
Yeah, I remember you telling me this a couple years back at Kublacon. I guess, as usual for me, it takes a while to sink in. I never cracked a Doc Savage nor finish a Tom Swift book, though I did read John Carter. Most of my scifi exposure started with Star Trek circa 1968 I believe, and up through the early 70s. By that I mean adult scifi that dealt with societal issues, but also had "strange phenomena" in them. In spite or reading Mike Mars and the like.

I did see Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Starman (Japanese) and a few other serials, but not in enough quantities to extract espionage / spy plots or international intrigue from them, but that's what Traveller, classic Traveller, focuses on, and I've only just realized that these last couple of years.

T4, what little I read, I thought was TNE. I cross connected both. Oh well.

When I think of classic Trek verse Traveller, verse what the LBBs stated that they were a "toolbox", I have it in my head that a type-S with a bunch of PCs can visit the CT's version of "the Mirror-verse" and other out-there tropes. But in spite of the pic in the basic T4 book, CT or T as a whole, is again more about addressing plots within reasonable tech reach, than taking on super-phenomena. And T4, as you all say, is about exploring the remnants of a pre-Imperial civ, and meting out plots that occur from that.

So yeah, I'm on track here. Thanks.
__________________
Sir Ghost, Knight of Imperial occupied Terra, Sol.
Travels with Blue Ghost; musings of a knight of the Imperium.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old February 10th, 2019, 11:33 AM
Maksim-Smelchak's Avatar
Maksim-Smelchak Maksim-Smelchak is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 280
Gallery : 0
Maksim-Smelchak Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyComet View Post
Traveller has been interpreted as "Hard" SF, but it is really only as hard as the SF that inspired it: Paperback SF of the 50s, 60s, and 70s was referred to as "Hard" because it generally established rules and stuck to them, but by today's standards much of that SF was "detailed" instead of being completely accurate according to science. There were certainly exceptions, but looking at Marc's novel makes it clear that the Traveller universe is a bit pulpier than many of us have been assuming.
Yes.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Theme#T...llectual_Theme
Shalom,
M.
__________________
Lord Maksim-Smelchak,
Marquis and Master of Sophontology of the Imperial Ministry of Science of the Third Imperium,
Master Traveller Chronicler, Wiki Guy & FFE Chief Gopher
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old February 11th, 2019, 02:40 PM
whartung whartung is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,642
Gallery : 0
whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+whartung Citizen+
Default

I think it's Space Opera is a hard edge.

I mean, to me, I like Traveller to be basically star system spanning Johnny Quest. Where going out to do an EVA is about as dangerous and scuba diving.

Shirt sleeve worlds, etc.

I like my Traveller more like Firefly than "The Expanse".

Why? Because living in space is a pain in the neck. Everything will kill you. If not an atmosphere leak, then its radiation, a poisoned air system, alien bacteria in your food, etc. etc.

Just getting through the day is hard, who has time for adventure and travel?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old February 11th, 2019, 04:29 PM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,463
Gallery : 56
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyComet View Post
Only in that it was written last. T4's era is at the beginning of the Third Imperium.

Traveller has been interpreted as "Hard" SF, but it is really only as hard as the SF that inspired it: Paperback SF of the 50s, 60s, and 70s was referred to as "Hard" because it generally established rules and stuck to them, but by today's standards much of that SF was "detailed" instead of being completely accurate according to science. There were certainly exceptions, but looking at Marc's novel makes it clear that the Traveller universe is a bit pulpier than many of us have been assuming.
Probably, but for me, it was LESS pulpy. As I once told Hunter, I like my "Errol Flynn, swinging from the chandeliers, Zorro Meets Star Wars."
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cepheus Engine Context Sensitive - a hard-scifi adventure for the Cepheus Engine Pyromancer TAS News Feed 0 May 16th, 2018 01:06 PM
Any good hard SF space opera recommendations iron warrior Random Static 25 November 12th, 2010 12:07 AM
Traveller Space Opera rancke Classic Traveller 27 May 4th, 2009 05:48 PM
SPACE OPERA or HARD SCI-FI? Solo The Lone Star 25 December 27th, 2001 09:41 AM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.