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T4 - Marc Miller's Traveller Discussion of T4 - Marc Miller's Traveller from Imperium Games and the Milieu 0 setting.

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  #11  
Old November 20th, 2014, 04:16 PM
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Afternoon PST GypsyComet

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Originally Posted by GypsyComet View Post
The Big Book of Hulls. BITS still has it and the last revision of the QSDS.
http://www.bitsuk.net/Archive/GameRules/GameRules.html
Thank you for the clarification and link. I checked out the page and discovered the I had a copy of BBOH, unfortunately I know it as just big hulls
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Old August 8th, 2016, 12:09 PM
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Default Deckplan scale for T4.

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Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
Which is the right scale?
Mr. Rux,

I have a couple of answers to your question, I certainly hope they help clarify things for you, instead of muddle things up even more.

1) May I make the argument that the purpose of having deck plans in the first place is so you may use miniatures of some sort in order to help determine a character's location during combat? And, I assume, that you would prefer using deck plans instead of the rules using a grid to determine location as presented in the T4 combat rules.

In the T4 combat rules, no "scale" is really given. Ranges are given in meters. No matter what scale you choose, you presumably will have to divide those range numbers by whichever scale you choose to determine how many squares are "short" range, "close" range, "long" range, etc. Similarly, the T4 rules state a character may walk 15m per combat round, or run 30m. Again, translating that information into how many squares a character can move is simple division.

2) In the Naval Architect's Manual I have never found anything that definitively states "1 square = 1.5m." However, (never mind this is the scale they have used in just about every other Traveller product,) if you look at the beds as they are drawn, they are well over 1 square long, but under 2 squares. Assuming a bed is about 2m long for an adult human to lie down in, then that would suggest the scale is greater than 1m per square and less than 2m per square. 1.5m per square would be right between those two extremes. I would suggest that would be the scale of the plans that are drawn in the Naval Architect's Manual.

If so, than that would obviously make the following true:

A character could walk 10 squares per combat round.
A character could run 20 squares per combat round.
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Old August 8th, 2016, 02:51 PM
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Hmmm... Last year I bought the pdf download T4 Starships which has a number of deck plans.

There are small squares on each drawing labelled with scale. The lavels are 1m, 1.5m, and 2m.

These are scout boats, rescue balls, liners of different sizes, patrol cruiser, etc.
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Last edited by JimMarn; August 8th, 2016 at 02:53 PM.. Reason: info
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Old August 8th, 2016, 10:13 PM
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Default Integration of deck plans with T4.

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Originally Posted by JimMarn View Post
Hmmm... Last year I bought the pdf download T4 Starships which has a number of deck plans.

There are small squares on each drawing labelled with scale. The lavels are 1m, 1.5m, and 2m.

These are scout boats, rescue balls, liners of different sizes, patrol cruiser, etc.
You know, sometimes my mind works in strange ways, and for that I apologize. But in reading what you wrote, I suddenly realized that, in english, we use the word "scale" for so many different things -- whether it's a music scale, a fish scale, or a scale to weigh something.

The reason I bring this up is because I believe we are using the word "scale" to mean two different things. More specifically, I believe "scale" is used in two different ways in T4's Starships, and T4's Naval Architect's Manual.

Mr. Rux's origional question was:

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Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
I've done a check through T4 Books 1, 2, B, and D looking for instructions on drawing deck plans without finding anything.

Can someone point me in the right direction please?
For what it's worth, Mr. Marn's description of Starships is not completely accurate. There are small squares on some of the drawings in the supplement, and they are labeled either 1m or 2m. There is not a 1.5m box in Starships. Furthermore, there are four examples of ships in Starships that have no little box at all, and therefore are not given a scale. They are the Large Armed Freighter, the Military Frontier Cruiser, the Military Destroyer, and the Luxury Liner.

But this isn't a big deal, right? In a Rand McNally atlas of the United States there is a scale ruler in the corner. But those scales will change from state to state, because the states are different sizes. Well, these starships are different sizes, so the little ruler in the corner changes to let the reader know the relative size of each illustration as compared to another. That's the purpose of the "scale" in the Starships supplement.

I believe the little boxes in the Naval Architect's Manual serve a different purpose. They are there to establish a scale -- to establish a common scale between each and every drawing. That was the purpose behind the Naval Architect's Manual -- to be able to copy and cut different sections of a ship out, and tape them together in order to make a deck plan that characters could run around on, presumably for establishing a character's movement and location during combat.

I believe this is the crux of Mr. Rux's question. Because he's right. I can't find it in there either. Ironically, they never say exactly how large each box is in the Naval Architect's Manual, other than to say they're exactly the same. Based on the evidence I suggested above, I believe each square in the Naval Architect's Manual is 1.5m x 1.5m for each and every drawing.

They do say, in the T4 main rulebook, (p. 92,) "hull size is measured in standard displacement tons, equivalent to 14 cubic meters, or the volume of one metric ton (1000kg) of liquid hydrogen." Both as described in other editions of Traveller, and mathematically, if a square is 1.5m (long) x 1.5m (wide) x 3m (tall,) that equals 6.75 cubic meters. Double that, and you end up with 13.5 cubic meters, which is approximately the 14 cubic meters described above. Since it takes two of these 1.5m squares to equal one ton, a 100 ton starship would have approximately 200 squares for a deck plan, (including fuel.) A 1000 ton starship would have 2000 squares in its deck plan, etc.

Mr. Rux...you can do whatever you want. But to answer your question, to help point you in the right direction, I would suggest you draw your deck plans using a scale of 1 square = 1.5m = 1/2 "ton" (of starship displacement.)

This scale integrates with earlier editions of Traveller, with the movement rules described above, and the range modifiers for combat given in T4's main rulebook.

The Combat Range chart on p. 61 would become:

Range number: 0 = Contact = 0-3m = 0-2 squares = easy = 1.5d6
Range number: 1 = V. Short = 4-15m = 3-10 squares = average = 2d6
Range number: 2 = Short = 16-45m = 11-30 squares = difficult = 2.5d6
Range number: 3 = Medium = 46-150m = 31-100 squares = formidable = 3d6
Range number: 4 = Long = 151-450m = 101-300 squares = staggering = 3.5d6
Range number: 5 = V. Long = 451-1500m = 301-1000 squares = impossible = 4d6

I hope this was helpful.
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Old August 10th, 2016, 02:06 PM
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The same word with multiple completely different meanings is a problem in English, and one that has tripped me up more than once.

But I can see the 1/2dton per square you detail for a 1.5m square.
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Old August 12th, 2016, 09:39 PM
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Here is my take on T4: Patrol Cruiser deck plans. Minimal furniture.

http://travellergame.drivein-jim.net...l-cruiser-ship
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Old August 13th, 2016, 04:26 AM
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But I can see the 1/2dton per square you detail for a 1.5m square.
That has been the standard through many editions. The assumption changed with TNE, which used 2m grid and a different spacing between decks. You could also assume that deck spacing is the same and figure out the number of additional floor grid you get instead.

For the 1.5m floor grid, a spacing from deck to deck of 3m is assumed. This means that two grid squares on the map are one displacement ton. All CT and MT plans except the Serpent Class Scout from Paranoia Press (and arguably the GDW Type A2 and DGP Type A) were done with this set of assumptions.

TNE and T4 assumed 2m floor grid and 3.5m floor spacing, so a single floor grid square was one displacement ton. The corollary is that you can get more detail by using a 1m floor grid which makes four grid squares equal one displacement ton.

T20 and Mongoose went back to 1.5m floor grid.

As long as you know what the grid measurement is, the rest falls into place.
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Old August 13th, 2016, 11:13 AM
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I'll have to redo the T4 Patrol Cruiser deck plans... I used what the pdf said, 1m per square.
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Old August 13th, 2016, 12:56 PM
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I'll have to redo the T4 Patrol Cruiser deck plans... I used what the pdf said, 1m per square.
Nothing needs to be changed, but that Patrol Cruiser does seem rather small. Or did T4 have a smaller Patrol Cruiser?
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Old August 13th, 2016, 05:21 PM
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Nothing needs to be changed, but that Patrol Cruiser does seem rather small. Or did T4 have a smaller Patrol Cruiser?
Its the one on page 40. 28m long x 16m wide.
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Last edited by JimMarn; August 13th, 2016 at 05:22 PM.. Reason: typo
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