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  #11  
Old December 14th, 2001, 06:34 PM
Solo Solo is offline
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FlightCommanderSolitude:
It's also a good example of well-done cover art, frankly.

-FCS
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, I recommended the artist (shiley? I think) over in the T20 discussion board to do the cover for the new T20 Traveller and alot of people over there thought he was too Dark Fantasy! I agree with you, great artist.

Sherm.
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  #12  
Old December 15th, 2001, 12:33 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
TNE: Too many "reality rules" that didn't simulate reality. The combat system was smooth, but very unrealistic. (under stock rules, even with the double damage on crit, you can't kill an NPC with a .22acp in one shot... you will not be able to cross the 20 point threshold; NPC's die at 21 points of damage, and even with x4 (x2 head, x2 crit), 1d6-1 maxes at 20.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, no, in my copy of TNE NPCs die at 41 damage, but there's an instant death rule for head & chest hits: roll d20, unless it exceeds damage NPCs die instantly (PCs take x2 damage), except on a 20. So a 1d6 wpn headshot is doubled to 2d6, avg 7, giving a 35% chance instant kill. In practice few weapons do under 3d6 damage (snub pistol with HEAP round, say), giving instant death chance of nearly 95%!

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  #13  
Old December 16th, 2001, 08:56 AM
TJP TJP is offline
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Hard space opera is what I aim for in my Traveller campaign. I used to call it feet-on-the-ground space opera, but hard space opera is a much better term. I try to avoid technobabble/super-science as much as possible, but I do allow things like the jumpdrive (of course), limited gravitics and very limited psionics.
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  #14  
Old December 16th, 2001, 07:38 PM
William William is offline
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Hard Space Opera is probably my goal as well.I want the sounds of the boom as well as the Bridge swinging back and forth. I draw my line at workstations going up in a storm of sparks... ;'o


Willian
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  #15  
Old December 18th, 2001, 09:12 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by William:
Hard Space Opera is probably my goal as well.I want the sounds of the boom as well as the Bridge swinging back and forth. I draw my line at workstations going up in a storm of sparks... ;'o


Willian
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do so like showers of sparks from meson hits....

... turret mounted meson guns were one nice feature of TNE.

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  #16  
Old December 18th, 2001, 09:25 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by simontmn:
Actually, no, in my copy of TNE NPCs die at 41 damage, but there's an instant death rule for head & chest hits: roll d20, unless it exceeds damage NPCs die instantly (PCs take x2 damage), except on a 20. So a 1d6 wpn headshot is doubled to 2d6, avg 7, giving a 35% chance instant kill. In practice few weapons do under 3d6 damage (snub pistol with HEAP round, say), giving instant death chance of nearly 95%!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I stand corrected on the "20 vs 40" issue. However, the roll is against the "Damage Value", not the rolled damage. Damage value is defined on TNE Mk1 Md1 p 285 as:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
The damage value of the weapon is listed in the weapon charts and is the number of d6 rolled. Some weapons have a damage value of -1. In this case, roll 1d6 and subtract 1.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Therefore, a .22 (damage value of -1, potential damage points of 0-5) is incapable of being a quick kill, and those 3d6 rifles are a 15% chance.

Now, to make damage a threat, we used d10's, not d6's (and -1 we rolled 1d6 straight up). We did use the quick kill rule as listed; it seldom had any impact. In fact, one PC chose to use a .22 specifically to avoid killing NPC's.

intentionally misreading the quick kill rule to "Damage points taken" is as broken, since most long-arm weapons now will kill outright about half the time.

And the ammount of damage a PC can take is hideous.

JFR, a quickfix we used was single-damage-track, STR+CON * 2, double damage on head hit, and apply quick kill rule to everybody. Wound thresholds were scratch: &lt;1/2 con, light: 1/2 con; severe: Con; Critical: Con+ or quick-kill check succeeded.

I oppose havig two differing standards for how damage is applied when the sole target distinction is PC vs NPC. (I don't mind MT's two standards, as one is EVERYONE during combat, and the other is "Long term damage" andd is supposed to be "everyone".)


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  #17  
Old December 20th, 2001, 08:04 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by aramis:
Therefore, a .22 (damage value of -1, potential damage points of 0-5) is incapable of being a quick kill, and those 3d6 rifles are a 15% chance.

I see that it's ambiguous - "damage value is the number of dice rolled.." I interpreted that as "the total on the number of damage dice rolled" rather than "a sum equal to the number of d6s rolled"... and you're probably right. However, nowhere do I see it saying that 1d6-1 counts as '0' for quick kill purposes: especially unlikely when a crit headshot to NPC does 4d6-4 damage with that .22 round. The 3d6 rifle is a 3x4= 12x5%=60% chance for a quick kill, if it critical-hits an NPC's head, even on your analysis.

Now, to make damage a threat, we used d10's, not d6's (and -1 we rolled 1d6 straight up). We did use the quick kill rule as listed; it seldom had any impact. In fact, one PC chose to use a .22 specifically to avoid killing NPC's.

Realistically speaking, a headshot from a .22 to the head usually _won't_ cause instant death, the velocity is too low to smash the skull properly, so fair enough. No one ever uses less than 3d6 dmg weapons in my TNE games, anyway.

intentionally misreading the quick kill rule to "Damage points taken" is as broken, since most long-arm weapons now will kill outright about half the time.

Which seems about right to me! A high-velocity rifle round to the head usually does mean instant death in real life. Also it cleans out the NPCs faster.

And the ammount of damage a PC can take is hideous.

If you mean that they can be easily killed by head hits (that penetrate armour), yes, why not? If you're referring to the great difficulty in killing PCs in TNE rules, well, that's why I use them for my heroic space opera game!

JFR, a quickfix we used was single-damage-track, STR+CON * 2, double damage on head hit, and apply quick kill rule to everybody. Wound thresholds were scratch: &lt;1/2 con, light: 1/2 con; severe: Con; Critical: Con+ or quick-kill check succeeded.

I use similar - damage 1-10 on NPC is Scratch, 11-20 LW, 21-40 SW, 41+ critical or dead, depending on circumstances.

I oppose havig two differing standards for how damage is applied when the sole target distinction is PC vs NPC. (I don't mind MT's two standards, as one is EVERYONE during combat, and the other is "Long term damage" andd is supposed to be "everyone".)


Well, normally I'd agree with you, but I wanted to run an heroic action game without using D&D rules, so for that purpose the PC/NPC split works fine. If I introduce any superheroic NPCs I'll use the PC rules for them, too.

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  #18  
Old December 20th, 2001, 08:15 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by simontmn:
Well, normally I'd agree with you, but I wanted to run an heroic action game without using D&D rules, so for that purpose the PC/NPC split works fine. If I introduce any superheroic NPCs I'll use the PC rules for them, too.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The game is called 'Captain Power & the Battle for the Galaxy' - there are just 2 PCs, the eponymous Fleet Captain Power and Commander Dek, who leads the Marines detachment on Power's heavy cruiser AU Cyclosis 04, pride of the Auran Space Navy. Think 'Flash Gordon' or 'Buck Rogers' - these are larger-than-life rootin'-tootin' space superheroes, not your usual Traveller starport bums. The games involve large space battles and ground actions with dozens of NPCs blazing away at the PCs with everything from 5mm rifles to plasma rifles - indeed, last session Commander Dek survived a near miss from a TL 13 grav tank fusion cannon! After discarding the space combat rules, TNE actually works really well for this.



[This message has been edited by simontmn (edited 20 December 2001).]
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  #19  
Old December 20th, 2001, 09:19 PM
Murph Murph is offline
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Attempts Hard Science, but ends up Space Opera.

I use both, edging towards Space Opera in my games. Not quite Lensman Space Opera, but close to Star Wars in some ways.
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  #20  
Old December 20th, 2001, 10:33 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by simontmn:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by aramis:
Therefore, a .22 (damage value of -1, potential damage points of 0-5) is incapable of being a quick kill, and those 3d6 rifles are a 15% chance.

I see that it's ambiguous - "damage value is the number of dice rolled.." I interpreted that as "the total on the number of damage dice rolled" rather than "a sum equal to the number of d6s rolled"... and you're probably right. However, nowhere do I see it saying that 1d6-1 counts as '0' for quick kill purposes: especially unlikely when a crit headshot to NPC does 4d6-4 damage with that .22 round. The 3d6 rifle is a 3x4= 12x5%=60% chance for a quick kill, if it critical-hits an NPC's head, even on your analysis.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't say the DV is doubled. it says the damage is doubled. The DV is listed on the tables. It wasn't ambiguous to me or my players.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Now, to make damage a threat, we used d10's, not d6's (and -1 we rolled 1d6 straight up). We did use the quick kill rule as listed; it seldom had any impact. In fact, one PC chose to use a .22 specifically to avoid killing NPC's.

Realistically speaking, a headshot from a .22 to the head usually _won't_ cause instant death, the velocity is too low to smash the skull properly, so fair enough. No one ever uses less than 3d6 dmg weapons in my TNE games, anyway.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most head hits with .22 LR weapons are eye shots, anyway. The .22 is not a bone breaker. And, on an eye shot, or a close range hit to the back of the head (Execution style), the .22 is quite effective, as it doesn't come out the other side, and sheds nearly all its energy inside the head.

but the quick kill also applies to chest shots, too. And as a chest shot issue, the DV is dice listed for weapon approach is too anemic, but the DV is damage done is way too much.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>intentionally misreading the quick kill rule to "Damage points taken" is as broken, since most long-arm weapons now will kill outright about half the time.

Which seems about right to me! A high-velocity rifle round to the head usually does mean instant death in real life. Also it cleans out the NPCs faster.

And the ammount of damage a PC can take is hideous.

If you mean that they can be easily killed by head hits (that penetrate armour), yes, why not? If you're referring to the great difficulty in killing PCs in TNE rules, well, that's why I use them for my heroic space opera game!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
no. IO mean that a PC will typically take 3-5 times the ammount of damage (total) that an NPC can before dropping. Simply due to separate locations.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
JFR, a quickfix we used was single-damage-track, STR+CON * 2, double damage on head hit, and apply quick kill rule to everybody. Wound thresholds were scratch: &lt;1/2 con, light: 1/2 con; severe: Con; Critical: Con+ or quick-kill check succeeded.

I use similar - damage 1-10 on NPC is Scratch, 11-20 LW, 21-40 SW, 41+ critical or dead, depending on circumstances.

I oppose havig two differing standards for how damage is applied when the sole target distinction is PC vs NPC. (I don't mind MT's two standards, as one is EVERYONE during combat, and the other is "Long term damage" andd is supposed to be "everyone".)


Well, normally I'd agree with you, but I wanted to run an heroic action game without using D&D rules, so for that purpose the PC/NPC split works fine. If I introduce any superheroic NPCs I'll use the PC rules for them, too.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are better ways, IMO, than the TNE method. Like CORPS, where you can take Toughness, or EABA (soon to be released) with "Larger than Life" as an advantage. It was not a "travellerism", but a T2Kism, and one my players and I didn't like. (Nor did we like that A PC survived a bite from a 40Ton Flying Puncer that had just successfully bitten the Air-Raft in half. Why, Hit locations. One arm, both legs gone. The air raft has one damage point pool.)

TNE was the most mechanically different traveller edition before GT. NOTHING about it was compatible outside the UPP system. And even there, you had to regress worlds. And it was a poor attempt to maintain continuity while completely eliminating the thing which most said traveller to me: the Third Imperium, and the rest of the award winning setting.

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