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  #31  
Old April 17th, 2007, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GypsyComet:
A setting like Traveller will annoy most Hero players due to the inherent lack of metagame influence they have via character generation. Being told to keep their grubby mitts out of the Powers chapter won't help any.
Not if your a Zho! At least Hero has a working set of Psi power rules. To have PSi strong powers in a non super game you would have to really cut back in other areas though. But that's okay, it's called game balance [img]smile.gif[/img]
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  #32  
Old April 17th, 2007, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Space Hamster:
They have stat maximums for heroic play.
The stat maximums are the cause of the granularity issue. Basically, for each characteristic, there are only a few efficient values within the "heroic" range.

Experienced players will tend to pick these breakpoint values when building their characters, resulting in PCs that are inclined to have similar stats and similar skill levels.

How big a drama this is is a matter of taste. Personally, I've never been too bothered by it.

One thing I like is the deadliness of the combat rules if you use all the nasty options like Hit Locations. Basically, any single wound can kill. Armour moderates that, of course.

One thing that would be worth thinking about in a Traveller Hero game would be how cinematic you wanted to be. While Traveller is typically at the more "realistic" end, it doesn't have to be. Personally, I wouldn't allow Combat Luck and similar builds in a Traveller Hero game, unless I wanted a game that plays like Star Wars. But without it, PCs will die in combat, unless they are very careful and reasonably lucky.

I've played Hero System games on and off for 25 years now. I've played Traveller for just under 28. Personally I prefer to play Traveller with Classic Traveller rules, and use the Hero system for superheroes and Pulp. (And old school DnD for fantasy!) But I can easily see that Traveller Hero could work, and work well.
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  #33  
Old April 17th, 2007, 01:54 PM
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Tangentially, have you had any experience with Fantasy HERO?

I've never played HERO, but I do have FH, and it strikes me that at the superheroic level it might kick high-level D&D's butt. Because it seems you can model the PCs' abilities using the incredible flexibility of HERO instead of being tied to this list of feats and skils and spells, which, however long, is ultimately class-based. You could create some serious Sinbad-level dude.
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  #34  
Old April 17th, 2007, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rhialto the Marvelous:
Tangentially, have you had any experience with Fantasy HERO?
Not a huge amount.

Quote:
I've never played HERO, but I do have FH, and it strikes me that at the superheroic level it might kick high-level D&D's butt.
Its big advantage is that you can tailor things to your tastes. That means that you can run Conan-type Swords and Sorcery, or Greek Mythology, or almost anything else you can think of, and it would work.

On the other hand, judging from the Hero Games boards (www.herogames.com/forums ), a lot of FH players use it to simulate D&D. Personally, I would rather stick my fingers down my throat.

FH magic, in particular, is prone to this. You can build all kinds of neat stuff - but most people end up building Fireball spells.
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  #35  
Old April 17th, 2007, 02:43 PM
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I have played fantasy hero quite a bit and it seems to have one basic problem. Do you make characters pay character points for equipment such as weapons and armour? I can see that this would also be a problem in Hero Traveller. Doing so sounds unreasonable, but if you don't then what do the fighter types spend their XP on? In Hero Traveller it would be okay because there are lots of skills they could learn. But in a Fantasy game you do not want the fighters to have tons more skills that the learned mage types.

Creating a fireball spell is pretty common because it's easy. In the hands of a Hero expert it can be devastating. (Add a few levels of Megascale to the area effect for example.) As has been pointed out the Hero system becomes a min/max tweaking game for experienced players. Characteristics divisible by 3 and 5 that round up are king!
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  #36  
Old April 17th, 2007, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marvo:
Do you make characters pay character points for equipment such as weapons and armour?
No. Except for special items - magic in FH, special gimmicks in Traveller Hero.

Quote:
But in a Fantasy game you do not want the fighters to have tons more skills that the learned mage types.
Boo frickin' hoo for the mages. They should get out more.

Seriously, I don't think finding things to spend points on is a problem.

The only real drama would be if the mages spend all their experience buying new spells, or buying up the power of the ones they have. But that's their problem, really. They don't have to do that.

I'm not a big fan of D&D type mages in FH anyway.
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  #37  
Old April 17th, 2007, 03:27 PM
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Definitely some sort of automated character/vehicle/device creator. I used to GM a Champions game back in the day (early 80s) and it was a administrative nightmare, even with premade characters. 3,5, and 8 were the bomb. Don't make me presence attack you.
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  #38  
Old April 18th, 2007, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Space Hamster:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GypsyComet:
&lt;snip&gt; Hero lacks the right granularity for "normals", and has never managed a good way to handle non-humans. A setting like Traveller will annoy most Hero players due to the inherent lack of metagame influence they have via character generation. Being told to keep their grubby mitts out of the Powers chapter won't help any.

&lt;snip&gt;
I just recently purchased the 5th edition revised rules and several other rule book for modern and si-fi and they have kind of two levels of rules Heroic and super heroic. The heroic is more for normal type characters. It is based on a point buy system (as opposed to class/level system). They have stat maximums for heroic play.

Now I have to say that the rules are much more complex than D20, but they are far more detailed. A point buy system will be more complex in that you do not have pre defined classes. The player has to decide what his characters build is within the point limit.

I have not had a chance to try this game out yet so I do not know how it plays yet.
</font>[/QUOTE]Hero more complex than D20? Not so much. Character generation, particularly for "normals", does have a lot of options, but so does D20. Supers (4-color), spell-casters (for fantasy), and aliens and psions (for SF) are another matter, but Referee-set guidelines and limits can do a lot to simplify those choices. The rules *in play* are pretty easy to execute, and a Hero character sheet has (if filled out properly) just about everything you need to know during a game already on it in easily readable form.

I can't say the same for the Hero 5th Revised main book. What a mess. I've played every edition of Hero in general release, and the current Hero folks need some basic re-education in rules ergonomics. Some of the support books are just as bad, or worse.
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  #39  
Old April 18th, 2007, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marvo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GypsyComet:
A setting like Traveller will annoy most Hero players due to the inherent lack of metagame influence they have via character generation. Being told to keep their grubby mitts out of the Powers chapter won't help any.
Not if your a Zho! At least Hero has a working set of Psi power rules. To have PSi strong powers in a non super game you would have to really cut back in other areas though. But that's okay, it's called game balance [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]Define "working". Traveller's psionics have traditionally been low-key for good reason. If you want to play a game of Lensmen vs the Green Lantern Jedis, be my guest. Calling it Traveller will be a stretch, though...

As for this "balance" thing. Traveller doesn't use it, doesn't need it, and shouldn't be slave to it. Thing is, Hero players are all about paying lip-service to "balance" while trying to abuse the illusion. If you believe the illusion, the players at your table who don't *will* walk all over you, at least in any game that involves the Powers chapter to any great extent.

For a game like Traveller, you really need to flip over the traditional Hero mindset (that the "character represents his PV") and thus be free of the chains of balance. The problem here is that many Hero players I've known consider this idea (that "the PV represents the character") blasphemous and inconceivable. This is, coincidentally, one of the reasons why the 4e book "Mystic Masters" is reviled by most Champions players, as that book promotes a similar approach to EXP.

For normals games with "easy come, easy go" equipment, however, it IS the best way to approach the question of "PC vs. the world" balance. It is also the best way to handle the traditional "late in life" introduction of psionics: a PC tested and trained now has a higher PV than he did two months ago. Was it EXP? No, it just happened, and now that PC is more powerful. He didn't earn the right by saving EXP, though the usual disads that go with Psi might help the overall PV a bit,

he's
...just
...built
...with
...more
...points.

You want to watch a gamer's head explode? This concept will get you everything but the gory mess when presented to the vast majority of Hero players...
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  #40  
Old April 24th, 2007, 12:01 PM
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I would tend to disagree that Traveller doesn't have any balance. Even in CT there are several skill sets that are only available by enlisting in specific professions. This prevents 'I can do everything' character from dominating the game. The exception is J-O-T, which I dropped from my Traveller games about 20 years ago.
This is always the big issue with point based (Hero, GURPS) systems. Everyone wants to try and do everything. It's up the the GM to keep things under control.
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