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The Fleet Ship designs, strategies, and tactics.

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  #61  
Old September 10th, 2017, 07:07 AM
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Forget nearly everything you have seen on a TV show or at the cinema (except perhaps The Expanse - unless you want 'unrealistic' cinematic ship combat for your game)

Missiles, rail guns and lasers have ranges measured in hundreds or thousands of km - in CT lasers are accurate at light second ranges.

Traveller fighters are analogous to motor torpedo boats more than aircraft if you want to use a real world paradigm - except they lack the 'torpedo' that would make them a threat.
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  #62  
Old September 10th, 2017, 01:23 PM
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Someone at Starfleetgames said that SFB carriers were like WW2 carriers, in that fighters acted as fire support. No one fighter, unlike today, could sink a warship. They had to attack en masse.

Are you saying that Traveller CV-fighter doctrine is kind of like that?
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  #63  
Old September 10th, 2017, 01:58 PM
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The whole fighter affair is also quite versión dependent. ALl you say is quite true in CT:HG or MT, but in MgT1E:HG (IDK in 2E) fighter may be quite deadly even for battleships. Even light 10 dton fighters can be quite effective in this role.
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  #64  
Old September 10th, 2017, 02:13 PM
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Mongoose took the decision to make their version more like Star Wars and extremely cinematic - I do not rate it as a space combat system at all.
That said some people want Star Wars fighters in their games so it suits them.
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  #65  
Old September 10th, 2017, 03:00 PM
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I don't think we can blame Mongoose for that.

MgT1 didn't have dogfights. Fighter supremacy was an, I assume, unintended byproduct of Reinforced Hull.

MgT2 dogfights comes from T5?
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  #66  
Old September 10th, 2017, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
MgT1 didn't have dogfights. Fighter supremacy was an, I assume, unintended byproduct of Reinforced Hull.
I don't thing so. In fact the fighter supremacy in MgT1E is due to the easiness to put armour and heavy weapons (PB) on them and the way the barrages work.

If you use RAW, even meson bays barrage fire is affected by armor (unless latter errata has fixed that), as it says (page 74, under Armour):
Quote:
Armour contributes directly to defense against all types of attacks
Personally, I think meson bays should be an exception to this.
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  #67  
Old September 11th, 2017, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
I don't thing so. In fact the fighter supremacy in MgT1E is due to the easiness to put armour and heavy weapons (PB) on them and the way the barrages work.
Fighters had the same armour and weapons as any other craft. Their USP was their reinforceability. A default 40 Dt fighter took 1+1=2 damage point to destroy, you could reinforce it to perhaps 13+2=15 points, a 650% increase.

Since the barrage system took the damage dice of the weapon as a positive DM and there was no size modifier, it was advantageous for big guns, aka bays.

Yes, meson bays were completely crippled by being affected by both armour and screens in the barrage system, but they worked very well in the basic combat system.
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  #68  
Old September 11th, 2017, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Since the barrage system took the damage dice of the weapon as a positive DM and there was no size modifier, it was advantageous for big guns, aka bays.
There's no DM for size, but there's a -4 DM to attack fighter wings (MgT1E:HG, page 80).

Also, the high speed of light fighters make them quite likely to reach close range, where any long range weapon has a -3 (but they have only a -1, as they use the "small craft shooting" column for close range (page 73 table), and if they use the "Fast Strafing Run" order (page 81, 4 initiative cost)m they shoot at +2DM and are shot at -2 DM).

See that the fighter shown in this post would be fired at -19 DM (-15 due to armor, -4 for fighter wings).

Example:

Let's imagine that a wing of 100 such fighters, 5 equal fighters armed with pulse lasers and 5 more with sandcasters (for wing defense), with crews skill pilot2 and gunner 1 (acting as 1 and 0 respectively, as they use both at once) attack Planet Class Heavy Cruiser (MgT1E:HG page 119) with +3 Crew quality. The fighters Dodge whi lthe approach:

Approach:

the cruiser:
  • fires its meson bays at -3 DM (+8 per dice, +2 per improvements, +3 per crew quality, +5 per fire control), but can only kill 10 fighters (one per gunner, so I guess one per bay).
  • Fires the torpedos at -5 (as they have 6 dice, asuming nukes, and no improvement DMs), but the point defenses subtract 2d-3 more.
  • Fires the PBs at -8 (same as mesons, but only 3 dice damage)
  • Fires the lasers at -10 (as they only have 1 die damage), so ineffective.
  • Fires the missiles at -11 (assuming they are nukes, as they have 2 dice damage, but no improvement DMs).

The fighters:
Fire their PBs at -4 DM (-10 per armor, +3 per dice, +3 FC), -6 if the cruiser is dodging. If the crews have.

Once at close range:

All cruiser weapons are subject to an additional -3, and missiles (and I guess torpedoes) cannot be used; so only the Mesons can be effective, but fire at -6

The fighters fire at -5 (-7 if the cruiser is dodging).

If strafing:

The cruiser bays are at additional -2, so firing at -8

The fighters fire at -3/-5.

And the fighters wing about MCr 3300 in total, while the cruiser costs MCr 55537. Assuming the same Budget and 66% of the fighter's one needed for carriers, the wing could be about 600 fighters....

Of course, against the armor 15 BB shown in page 101 the situation is less bright for the fighters, but the Budget is increased to MCr 138236, so, with the same premises (33% of th ebudget spent in fighters), about 1500 fighters could attack it...
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Last edited by McPerth; September 15th, 2017 at 02:29 PM..
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  #69  
Old September 11th, 2017, 09:01 PM
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I remember last year cracking my Trillion Credit Squadron book, and that chart is the reason I don't design ships, even though I have, but have never liked it, and why I prefer the RP aspect to Traveller and not the warsim portion.

Here's a question, since we're comparing fighters today with fighters in the 3I; the USMC act as the US Navy's army, and also air force. Does the Imperium have a similar organization?

Again, from the SFB site, I remember someone citing a foreign officer making the following paraphrased statement about the US military; "I understand why your navy needs an army, but why does your navy's army need its own air force?"

I think the reason is that fire support of troops is a different role than what naval aviators are typically trained for. But I wonder if that same division of labor holds true for the Imperial navy, or any other power in the OTU.
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  #70  
Old September 11th, 2017, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
why does your navy's army need its own air force?
world war ii was horrifically expensive, costing billions of dollars and killing tens of millions of people and culminating in the use of weapons that appeared to render expensive armies obsolete. elements in the u.s. army air corps told congress, "in the future, wars will be fought using aircraft delivering nuclear weapons. you should form a fourth branch of service, the air force, to fight these wars strategically. we dominate the world in aircraft and nuclear weapons and technology, thus with this new strategic branch we will win all future wars in a few hours at a fraction of the cost in money and men." congress agreed.

when the korean war started the united states realized it could not necessarily go straight to nuclear weapons without being nuked in return, and waged a conventional war. the new air force, however, said it could bomb the enemy back into the stone age using conventional weapons, and was given permission to do so. the air force promptly took charge of ALL aircraft in theater, declaring them all strategic assets subject to their command - this included all navy aircraft and all navy ground support aircraft. when the marines called for air support, the air force said, "we're a strategic arm, we don't do that", and refused, leaving marines to die.

the marine corps has never forgotten this, and never will. thus they (and the navy) push so hard for 1) naval aircraft 2) that perform ground support 3) and have no strategic value to and thus no use by the air force.

that's why.
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