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2300AD & 2320 Discussion of the original 2300AD from GDW, the revised 2300 from Mongoose Publishing, or QLI's 2320AD.

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Old March 4th, 2010, 12:59 PM
marginaleye marginaleye is offline
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Default Adapting "Pocket Empires" for "2300 AD"

I'm currently trying to adapt Traveller's "Pocket Empires" system to the social and technological assumptions of the "2300 AD" universe.

One of the biggest such differences is that the Traveller universe has antigravity, which makes getting things into orbit obscenely cheap and easy by modern standards. In the Traveller universe, it costs less than a present-day U.S. penny per kilogram, based on the Cr10/dton shuttle fee and the assumptions that (1) a Credit in the Classic Traveller universe has the same buying power as a 1977 U.S. dollar, and (2) the cargoes transported by starships in the Traveller universe have the same average density (kilogram/cubic meter) as the cargoes transported by maritime freighters on Earth (the average mass for a standard "TEU" cargo container is about 14 tonnes).

I know that in the "2300 AD" universe there are several methods of getting cargo into orbit: beanstalks, electromagnetic catapults (for durable cargoes only), SSTO shuttles, and old-fashioned rockets. Are there any figures for how much each of these methods costs, per cubic meter and/or per tonne?

Also, am I correct in thinking that a Livre has the same buying power as $3.00 in 1986? (I got that from http://web.me.com/pentapod2300/best/livre.htm).
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Old March 4th, 2010, 06:32 PM
Peter Schutze Peter Schutze is offline
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in the T20 / 2320 rules it says the MCr is half a MLv
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Old March 4th, 2010, 07:57 PM
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I scanned through the 2300AD rules, source books, and adventures and couldn't find anything that talked to the economics of moving cargo to and from orbit. 2300AD didn't really focus on economics the way CT does so that doesn't surprise me.

However, I did come across an article by Andy Slack in the "2300 AD Archive: Articles and Handouts for 2300 AD" document that has an article titled "Social Class in 2300 AD". The article contains a chart that provides a chart for monthly salary and monthly upkeep in Lv per month. You may be able to extrapolate a cost for cargo transportation using thesde as a cost of living basis.

You can find the article at this link: http://andyslack.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/2300ad.pdf

Hope this helps
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Old March 4th, 2010, 08:35 PM
marginaleye marginaleye is offline
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I did find this document

http://ad2300.tripod.com/cargos.pdf

which offers prices for transportation to orbit (and from orbit) using various methods. It's *almost* what I'm looking for. Unfortunately, much of this document seems to be an adaptation of the Traveller trade-and-commerce rules to 2300AD, and when the author refers to "tons," I'm not sure whether he means "tonnes" (thousands of kilograms), or "dtons." I don't have the 2300AD rules themselves -- does 2300AD even use tons/dtons as a unit of volume? Or, in a 2300AD context, does "tons" always mean mass/weight, and never volume?
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Old March 4th, 2010, 08:43 PM
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From the somewhat difficult to procure Challenge 29 which has a trade system for 2300.

Caveat: I'm not sure exactly how accurate this is. The author is Gary Thomas, which I'm sure some grognard on here has heard of. I'm not sure who he is - ergo I'm not sure how "canon" it is for 2300 or where Mssr Thomas got his costs - if they're researched or simply arbitrary.

Code:
Method              Cost/ton                     Special
Beanstalk           Lv500                        Limited access, advanced booking
Rocket/Shuttle      Lv3000
Space Plane         Lv2000
Rocket Plane        Lv2000
Scramjet            Lv2000
Catapult            Lv500                        No passengers or fragile cargo

* Table lists for LOW GRAVITY worlds.
* Multiply by 1.5 for average gravity worlds; multiply by 2 on high gravity worlds.
There's more to it - there's a discussion about an entire trade system, but I don't think I can really copy more in good faith.

If any mods feel this is too much to show already, please feel free to edit the post.
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Last edited by epicenter00; March 4th, 2010 at 08:45 PM..
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Old March 4th, 2010, 09:34 PM
Peter Schutze Peter Schutze is offline
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2300 used tonnes (1000kg) and m3 rather than displacement

That challenge 29 article was not canon and seems to contradict other canon items eg the errata confirming that shuttle & scramjet prices are switched ie scramjets are more expensive per tonne. Earth's stats was the standard measure so you would be adjusting pricing from 1g anyway .... on the minority of worlds that weren't fairly close to earth normal

I'll have to go reread the article now

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Old March 4th, 2010, 10:22 PM
marginaleye marginaleye is offline
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Thank you, everyone, for the information.

I'm thinking, in particular, about the "Foreign Investment" formula that turns up again and again in the "Pocket Empires" rules.

Whenever you want to do something in another star system (e.g. build its Infrastructure, increase its Tech Level, improve its Starport), you need to multiply the normal cost of the project by a "Foreign Construction factor," or "FC":

FC = 1 + (Distance / 2)

Where "Distance" is the number of parsecs between the donor world and the recipient.

I'm thinking this formula needs to be modified for "P. E. 2300 AD," so in addition to distance (measured in 7.7 light year units, rather than parsecs), there should be a flat fee for getting into, and out of, orbit. If you wanted to get really fancy, the size of the orbit-and-reentry fee would be based on the gravities of the donor and the recipient.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marginaleye View Post
I did find this document

http://ad2300.tripod.com/cargos.pdf

which offers prices for transportation to orbit (and from orbit) using various methods. It's *almost* what I'm looking for. Unfortunately, much of this document seems to be an adaptation of the Traveller trade-and-commerce rules to 2300AD, and when the author refers to "tons," I'm not sure whether he means "tonnes" (thousands of kilograms), or "dtons." I don't have the 2300AD rules themselves -- does 2300AD even use tons/dtons as a unit of volume? Or, in a 2300AD context, does "tons" always mean mass/weight, and never volume?
Probably neither; a real world naval cargo ton is whichever gives larger measures of mass in tons metric or volume in hundreds of cubic feet; the railway ton is 40cu ft or 2000 lbs. That naval ton is very likely to remain the standard for shipping.

Here's an extract from Rowlett's to confuse you further,
ton (tn or T or t) [1]
a traditional unit of weight equal to 20 hundredweight. In the United States and Canada, there are 100 pounds in the hundredweight and exactly 2000 pounds (907.185 kilograms) in the ton. In Britain, there are 112 pounds in the hundredweight and 2240 pounds (1016.047 kilograms) in the ton. To distinguish between the two units, the British ton is called the long ton and the American one is the short ton. In old England, a "tun" was a large cask used to store wine. Because these tuns were of standard size, more or less, the tun came to represent both a volume unit, indicating the capacity of a cask, and also a weight unit, indicating the weight of a cask when it was full. The best symbol to use for this unit is tn. In the U.S. mining industry, T is used to distinguish the traditional ton from the metric ton, but T is the SI symbol for the tesla. The symbol t, traditionally used for the long or short ton, is now reserved for the metric ton.
ton (t) [2]
a metric unit of mass, equal to 1000 kilograms, or approximately 2204.623 pounds avoirdupois. This metric ton is a bit smaller than the British long ton. The metric ton is now known officially as the tonne (see below).
ton (RT or rT) [3]
a unit used traditionally to measure the cargo capacity of a merchant ship. During the Middle Ages, merchant ships were rated by the number of tuns of wine they could carry. Today the merchant marine ton is defined to be exactly 100 cubic feet, or approximately 2.8316 cubic meters. This unit is often called the register ton, since it is recorded in official registers of ships. The symbol RT seems to be in wide use for this unit, but it is also used for the refrigeration ton (definition [7] below).
ton (DT or dT) [4]
a unit of volume used traditionally to measure the "displacement" of ships, especially warships. One way to describe the size of a ship is to state the volume of sea water it displaces when it is afloat: in other words, the volume of that part of the ship below the waterline. The actual weight of sea water varies somewhat according to its temperature and how salty it is, but for this purpose it has been agreed that a long ton of sea water occupies about 35 cubic feet. Accordingly the displacement ton is defined to be exactly 35 cubic feet, or approximately 0.9911 cubic meter. Since this is a much smaller unit than the register ton, warships have a much higher "tonnage" than merchant ships of approximately the same dimensions. The symbol DT is recommended for this unit.
ton (FT) [5]
a traditional unit of volume used for measuring the cargo of a ship, truck, train, or other freight carrier. This freight ton is exactly 40 cubic feet, or approximately 1.1326 cubic meters. However, the term "freight ton" is also being used to mean a metric ton of freight, volume not specified. Perhaps because of this confusion, the 40 cubic foot unit is often called the measurement ton (MTON). But the confusion seems impossible to dispel; some shippers are now using "measurement ton" to mean a metric ton of freight. To further complicate the situation, the freight ton is also called the U.S. shipping ton; the British shipping ton is 5% larger at 42 cubic feet (1.1893 cubic meters).
ton (tn or T) [6]
a unit of energy used for measuring the energy of an explosion, especially a nuclear explosion. In this usage, one ton is supposed to be the amount of energy released by the explosion of one short ton of TNT. This is defined in the U.S. to equal exactly 4.184 gigajoules (GJ) or roughly 4 million Btu.
ton (RT) [7]
a unit of power used in refrigeration engineering. One ton of refrigeration is intended to be the power required to freeze one short ton of water at 0°C in 24 hours. This is assumed to be exactly 12 000 Btu per hour (Btu/h or "Btuh"), which is equivalent to 200 Btu/min, 3.516 853 kilowatts, 4.7162 horsepower, or 0.8396 (kilogram) Calorie per second (Cal/s). The symbol RT seems to be in wide use for this unit, but it is also used for the register ton (definition [3] above).
ton [8]
British slang for 100, especially the sum of 100 pounds, a speed of 100 miles per hour, or a score of 100 in darts or cricket. The origin of this usage is not clear.
(http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/dictT.html)
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IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
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Old March 4th, 2010, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epicenter00 View Post
From the somewhat difficult to procure Challenge 29 which has a trade system for 2300.

Caveat: I'm not sure exactly how accurate this is. The author is Gary Thomas, which I'm sure some grognard on here has heard of. I'm not sure who he is - ergo I'm not sure how "canon" it is for 2300 or where Mssr Thomas got his costs - if they're researched or simply arbitrary.
Gary is, IIRC, one of the DGP guys.

DGP tended to do decent research. For example, they used NASA's volume rates for LHyd (0.07 T/m3), resulting in a 13.5m3 Td, instead fo the looser 14m3 Td of CT, but kept the 250MW per Td... They used a 250MW Striker Laser for pen, but then chopped the size down to fit in the standard turret.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epicenter00 View Post
If any mods feel this is too much to show already, please feel free to edit the post.
Not even close, IMO. It's well within fair use.
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Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
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Old March 5th, 2010, 12:08 AM
marginaleye marginaleye is offline
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On multiple sites relating to maritime cargo, I've encountered "14 metric tons" ("tonnes") as the average loaded weight of a standard TEU container. The volume of a TEU is 1280 cubic feet, or 36.25 cubic meters, or 2.56 dtons. The average weight of a dton of cargo, therefore, is 5.41 metric tons.

It costs Cr1000 to ship 5.41 metric tons of cargo (1 dton) one jump.

Therefore, it costs Cr184.84 to ship one metric tone of cargo one jump.

If you assume that Cr1 has the same buying power one 1977 U.S. dollar, and if you adjust for inflation, shipping one metric ton of cargo one jump would cost $656.71 (in 2008 dollars).

According to http://ad2300.tripod.com/cargos.pdf, it costs between Lv5 and Lv20 to ship one metric ton of cargo one light-year by stutterwarp. For simplicity, let's just assume that the average cost of shipping is Lv10 per metric ton per light-year.

According to http://web.me.com/pentapod2300/best/livre.htm, Lv1 as the same buying power as three 1986 U.S. dollars, so if you adjust for inflation, shipping one metric ton of cargo one light-year by stutterwarp would cost $58.93 (in 2008 dollars).

If you assume that "per jump" is roughly synonymous with "per parsec" (admittedly, a questionably assumption, but not a totally unreasonable one, since the bulk of cargo-hauling is along "mains" of worlds that are mutually accessible by jump-1 freighters), then in the Traveller universe, it costs $201.44 to ship one metric ton of cargo one light-year ($6.56.71 / 3.26).

The formula from Pocket Empires for the Foreign Construction (FC) factor is:

FC = 1 + ( DistanceP / 2 )
where "DistanceP" is in parsecs

If you measure "Distance" in light-years, rather than parsecs, then the formula for the Foreign Construction factor should look like:

FC = 1 + ( DistanceL / 6.52 )
where "DistanceL" is in light-years

The cost, per light-year, of shipping in the Traveller universe is 3.42 times greater than the cost of shipping in the 2300 AD universe ($201.44 versus $58.93, after converting Credits and Livre to 2008 U.S. dollars).

The cost, Foreign Construction factor formula, therefore, for a 2300 AD version of Pocket Empires should be:

FC = 1 + ( DistanceL / ( 6.52 * 3.42 ) )
FC = 1 + ( DistanceL / 22.30 )

Ta-da! The only dubious assumption I see is "1 jump = 1 parsec," but (a) I stand by my assertion that most serious shipping (apart from passengers and small valuable cargos) is along "jump-1 mains," and (b) in Pocket Empires, the FC formula is always measures distance in parsecs, not in terms of jumps.

Thoughts? Criticism?

However, there also needs to be a huge additional correction for hauling the cargo up out of the gravity well of the "donor" planet, and gently lowering it down into the gravity well of the "recipient" planet. I'll try to get to that in the near future.

Last edited by marginaleye; March 5th, 2010 at 12:11 AM..
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