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In the OTU In the Official Traveller Universe. Any milieux that's been published in any edition. Not for discussion of rules except in reference to how they reflect the OTU

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  #11  
Old February 13th, 2018, 10:23 PM
JFGarber JFGarber is offline
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Originally Posted by Barrel View Post
This is functional immortality and eternal youth. It doesn't really fit human psychology and any society that has it is going to be radically different than any society we have ever seen. IMO the ramifications of this make any society that has it far too different from our own to really be playable.
I agree. I have not used any of that section of T5.09. I understand that in some ways the point of the game is to explore things different from our own reality, but it's easy to go so far that there aren't any relevant markers remaining. And with effective immortality, I forecast a highly divided society, a much darker place than I want to visit.
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  #12  
Old February 13th, 2018, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
You have made some very good points here. The one regarding using anagathics verses simply cloning oneself raises a question that does require an answer.
I had these thoughts on the issue in another thread from a while back:

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What if, for the sake of the discussion, we explore a derivative line of thought. Suppose we "relax" the cultural stipulation against Nobles using anagathics (I always thought that was an illogical rule as well), just for the sake of argument, and transfer that stigma to the use of relicts/clones (or at the very least argue that the relict/clone is not considered a legal inheritor of Imperial Title under Imperial High Law). Perhaps it is an "anathema" derived from some heretofore unspecified events during the latter days of the Rule of Man that the Vilani remember with loathing (since the Solomani were well advanced in the biological sciences as compared to the Vilani). Perhaps said events even contributed to the collapse of the RoM.

What if the use of anagathics is detrimental to the effective decantation of clones and relicts? Perhaps such clones/relicts are not "faithful" to the original in some way? Enough to invalidate them as a true successive copy (e.g. anagathics interferes with the replication of the genetics and/or neurological patterns; INT and EDU are altered/lessened; memory transfer is not faithful, etc) due to the consequences of the anagathics regimen?

Now said Noble must choose between:
1) Using anagathics (which in actual practice can only realistically extend life up to a certain degree, IIRC) and NOT being able to produce a relict/clone that is considered to be a continuation of himself (and in fact may have mental handicaps and/or physiological problems);

2) Forgoing anagathics in order to have a relict/clone available as Life Insurance, but without Imperial Rights of Inheritance.
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  #13  
Old February 14th, 2018, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Depending on what private life had Norris had, the male memories on a female body could produce some mental distress and maybe some problems better to discuss in the pit (if at all)...
Norris had an intimate relationship with his male attaché/aid, that's a matter of canon.
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Old February 14th, 2018, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Barrel View Post

...would be frowned upon by the good duke's heirs. Was the office of Duke of Efate vacant for those three years? Did the duke's son take the position during those three years but then is demoted once his father's clone/father makes a reappearance? Why use anagathics when you could just periodically make a new, younger clone of yourself and download your mind into it?
The clone isn't you. You die when your body and brain die. The clone just thinks it is you - your continuity of self awareness is over when you die.

What if someone makes a relict and you haven't died? Which version is really you under the law?

There's a lot of interesting discussion on these themes in the 'whither' death thread.

Quote:
This is functional immortality and eternal youth. It doesn't really fit human psychology and any society that has it is going to be radically different than any society we have ever seen. IMO the ramifications of this make any society that has it far too different from our own to really be playable.
Mindjammer Traveller, the Culture, Altered Carbon... all playable.

The Third Imperium is not a liberal western democracy in the 57th century, it is a vast melting pot of racial (as in alien race) and cultural differences, and that is just in one subsector
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Old February 14th, 2018, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JFGarber View Post
I agree. I have not used any of that section of T5.09. I understand that in some ways the point of the game is to explore things different from our own reality, but it's easy to go so far that there aren't any relevant markers remaining. And with effective immortality, I forecast a highly divided society, a much darker place than I want to visit.
I recommend you re-read Adventure 1 - especially the rumours section. The Imperium started off as quite a dark setting, Agent of the Imperium in its way re-emphasises the differences between the original darker setting and the sanitized 'white hat' Imperium of late CT and especially the GTAU.

There is absolutely no need to use these themes in your games, it is meant to be a fun pass time after all, but quite often good sci-fi is to be found wherein the changes to the human condition as a result of technological and cultural shift. I always found the concepts behind the Cyberpunk genre very silly - but had great fun running games. As the cyberpunk gave way to dystopian transhumanism it started to make more sense to me.
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Old February 14th, 2018, 03:44 AM
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Where did the idea that nobles shun anagathics come from anyway?

Back in A:1 we are told:
Quote:
He insists that the liver of these little beasts is used in
the Emperor's own anagathic preparations.
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Old February 14th, 2018, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
The one regarding using anagathics verses simply cloning oneself raises a question that does require an answer.
Anagathics continues your existence.
Relicts/clones are not a continuation of your existence, the clone/relict just thinks it is you.
There would need to be pretty comprehensive laws governing the legal status of a relict/clone, inheritance rights etc.
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Old February 14th, 2018, 05:12 AM
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Let us remember that Wafers using the genetic structure SDEIES cannot be used by those sophonts who are under the genetic structure of SDEIEC or others such as SDEIEK (Caste) and beyond.

Your human is going to get one hell of a migraine trying to slot a Vargr Wafer. I shudder to think of the M1900 Galaxiad Republic of Regina pulling Dame Qithka Cannagrrh's recorded personality out of the vaults on Vincennes and then mistakenly letting a human slot a Wafer of her, just so they can interview her about the M1100.

As to males slotting female personalities or vice versa, that's up to the Referee and may involve a Check SAN roll after the listed usage duration per Tech Level of the Wafer. Nothing a little endocrine rebalancing won't fix in the Medical Console and Clinic with the aid of the ship's Medic.

Remember also that there is a distinction between a Clone and a Relict Clone. Relict Clones are meant only to be iterated upon the confirmed death or long disappearance of the pattern donor.

From the Zirunkariish Healthcare & Insurance, Vincennes (Deneb 1122) cloning vats laboratory, this is the Pakkrat, who combed the Wafer Technology chapter and Life Insurance muster benefit in detail.
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Old February 14th, 2018, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Anagathics continues your existence.
Relicts/clones are not a continuation of your existence, the clone/relict just thinks it is you.
There would need to be pretty comprehensive laws governing the legal status of a relict/clone, inheritance rights etc.
This. Relict clones are far more valuable to everyone except the actual person being cloned, who is still dead. Employers get to retain valuable employees, spouses get to retain beloved spouses, superfans get to keep enjoying their favorite holovid star. But the pattern? Dead.

And while I suppose relicts work great at a very superficial level, the process cannot be perfect and I suspect at a very granular level, all kinds of issues emerge. (Black Mirror has a lot of ideas along these lines.)

You were married to Susan for 30 years before the air/raft accident. Now she's back, but in a 20 year old body. At first that seemed great, but as you look at your own graying, saggy, paunchy body . . . it seems weird. Physically, she's younger now than your daughter. She doesn't want to go for slow walks on the beach any more -- she wants to surf, run 5ks. She's listening to some Vegan music that just sounds like cats screaming. She's talking about going offworld, even though you just bought that small bungalow she picked out 5 years ago. She says she wants to go back to work, just are you are starting to wind down your practice. And her memories? She says remembers everything, right up until the insurance scan 5 years ago. Which means she doesn't know about your affair, doesn't know about all the fights, the counseling, the weary reconciliation. At first you thought this would be like starting over, another second chance. Except you still remember. Everything. And you're keeping the same secrets all over again.

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Old February 14th, 2018, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Where did the idea that nobles shun anagathics come from anyway?

Back in A:1 we are told:
Quote:
He insists that the liver of these little beasts is used in
the Emperor's own anagathic preparations.
It is something that evolved in canon over time (the first place I remember seeing it was in MT or DGP, can't remember which). I always got the impression it was an concept looking for a valid excuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Anagathics continues your existence.
Relicts/clones are not a continuation of your existence, the clone/relict just thinks it is you.

There would need to be pretty comprehensive laws governing the legal status of a relict/clone, inheritance rights etc.
I agree completely. I had this same opinion/discussion in a thread a while back in the Audience Hall of the Moot. It may be a very attractive option for players from a metagame standpoint in order to resurrect their otherwise dead characters, but from a role-playing "in-game" standpoint, for an actual individual, when the person dies, they die, regardless of the existence of a relict that is fully convinced that it is you (and which may be considered, for all practical purposes, to be you by other people). But "you" have not been transferred to the clone/relict without invoking metaphysics or religion. (And we will not discuss those here ).
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