Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > Other Versions of Traveller > MegaTraveller

MegaTraveller Discuss of the MegaTraveller ruleset and the Rebellion Milieu

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #191  
Old October 23rd, 2017, 11:34 PM
jcrocker's Avatar
jcrocker jcrocker is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 831
Gallery : 0
jcrocker Citizen+jcrocker Citizen+
Default

To be fair, that was a fun territory.
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old October 24th, 2017, 03:18 AM
McPerth's Avatar
McPerth McPerth is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 7,709
Gallery : 0
Visit McPerth's Blog
McPerth has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyphen View Post
This is why I decided to not only apply the x10 rule, but also divide the ship weapons damage by 10.

This still allows the weakest ship weapon (Beam Laser-8, Pen 73/7, Damage 50, Range 1250 km) to outrank the most powerful vehicle weapon (RPZ-16, Pen 79/5, Damage 30, Range 30 km).

Remembering of course, that the Damage is in d6 rolled: 50 = 50d6 damage.
(I guess you mean RFZ-16, not RPZ, as it does not exist)

Let's see...

The RFZ-16 uses 123.4 Mw. IIRC, the combat round is 15 seconds, so it means 1851 Mj. As it has a ROF of 40, each shoot delivers about 46.25 Mw power, equivalent to pen 79/5 and 30 dmg...

As the Blaser it assumed to be firing the whole turn, and so the power delivered would be dependent on the time it hits, I'll use the Plaser instead:

The Plaser-8 uses 250 MW and has no ROF listed (so we'll asume 1 shoot per round). So, as it delivers about 3750 Mj it is about 80 times more power than the RFZ-16. As Pen is similar, the damage should be about 240 if we assume energy delivered to be an indicator...

Of course, this may also be affected by the dispersión (shown in danger space), that would reduce the energy delivered by the Plaser, so the 60 hits it would deliver with your rules may well be correct...

BTW, you say the Blaser has a range of 1250 km. Where do you take this number from? in the table in page 80 of the PM it is listed as Far Orbit range (so about 0.5 Mkm).
__________________
Duke of ShaiaVland 3215 B64A998-E
Marquis of Ashtagz Tyui SR 1818C548786-8
SEH for actions in Extolay

I'm not afraid about bullets, what scares me is the speed at which they're incoming.
Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old October 24th, 2017, 09:30 PM
Carlobrand Carlobrand is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,604
Gallery : 1
Visit Carlobrand's Blog
Carlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected CitizenCarlobrand Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyphen View Post
... If it hits, a 500d6 TL 8 beam laser would totally fry an adventurer-sized ship; but that's not necessarily the outcome even under High Guard rules.

And that's even if it's damage was reduced to 250d6 (due to Pen 73 vs Target Armour 40). ...
WW-II, Battle off Samar, one of the few encounters in which battleships had an opportunity to use their main batteries. American destroyers survived multiple hits from Japanese battleships and heavy cruisers before succumbing to heavy fire, primarily because the powerful armor-piercing rounds used at the outset passed straight through the unarmored destroyers and out the other side without exploding, doing some damage but not nearly as much as the warheads were capable of.

Perhaps we need something like that, a maximum damage level beyond which the laser is considered to have burned straight through and out the other side, thereby inflicting only a fraction of its full power. A penetration of 48 takes a weapon through both sides of a ship with an armor value of 40. Don't know what energy would be spent inside, depends on what it's hitting, but it's still more or less burning a hole from one side to the other and out. One can make an argument for capping damage for lasers, at least.
__________________
Disclaimer
Comments made are for the purpose of offering alternative campaign settings for consideration. The writer acknowledges that Traveller is intended to emulate certain common science fiction tropes and that, in the course of emulating those tropes and providing a better playing experience, some liberties must be taken with science. No statement by the writer should be interpreted as constituting a criticism of the game on that basis ... except for that bit about Virus. Dude, really?!
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old October 24th, 2017, 10:57 PM
Condottiere Condottiere is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,519
Gallery : 0
Condottiere Citizen++Condottiere Citizen++Condottiere Citizen++Condottiere Citizen++
Default

I don't recall lasers having an explosive effect, as compared to meson or fusion guns.
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old October 25th, 2017, 03:34 AM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is online now
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 16,605
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlobrand View Post
WW-II, Battle off Samar, one of the few encounters in which battleships had an opportunity to use their main batteries. American destroyers survived multiple hits from Japanese battleships and heavy cruisers before succumbing to heavy fire, primarily because the powerful armor-piercing rounds used at the outset passed straight through the unarmored destroyers and out the other side without exploding, doing some damage but not nearly as much as the warheads were capable of.
Oddly enough the lack of damage to German ships at the Battle of Jutland was attributed to RN shells exploding on contact with armour rather than penetrating then exploding (the RN changed the explosives in its shells post Jutland).

I don't think any Navy ever came up with a dual purpose warhead for its big guns, or even carried different types of warhead.

Quote:
Perhaps we need something like that, a maximum damage level beyond which the laser is considered to have burned straight through and out the other side, thereby inflicting only a fraction of its full power. A penetration of 48 takes a weapon through both sides of a ship with an armor value of 40. Don't know what energy would be spent inside, depends on what it's hitting, but it's still more or less burning a hole from one side to the other and out. One can make an argument for capping damage for lasers, at least.
T4 has a rule for damage capping...
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.

Last edited by mike wightman; January 6th, 2019 at 04:13 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old October 25th, 2017, 03:40 AM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is online now
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 16,605
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

Back to vent-rant:

if I were in charge of the MT revision (and I mean what DGP did not the current clean up project)

no expanded character generation;
jump fuel formula stays at 10% per parsec, power plants are what need to change;
ship combat as previously discussed.
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old October 25th, 2017, 09:35 AM
Hyphen's Avatar
Hyphen Hyphen is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Margate, Brisbane
Posts: 1,044
Gallery : 10
Hyphen Citizen+Hyphen Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcrocker View Post
To be fair, that was a fun territory.
Especially when you're the guy who told Strephon about the Empress Wave. ;-) ;-) ;-)
__________________
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson
Beowulf Down/Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520
Titles:Awards:
- Count Zuiar (Dagu 0705)- Starburst for Extreme Heroism - Pursuits at Alell
- Baroness Heidi Maria Heyerdahl, Tavonni (Spin 1520)- MCG - Final Victory at Emerald
- Baron Sii (Dagu 0932)TAS:
- Ritter of Tavonni (Spin 1520)- Bearer (Ley: Silver 0221); Bearer (Lish: Zemud 0212)
Coins:(#170) XO (Lt) FE Holmes, 154th BR Sq
(#222) PlatLdr (LtO2), 3P, ΔTrp (G-Tank), 2B (LI), 4518th(#282) XO (LtO2), ΒCo (J-Trp), 6B (JT), 4518th
Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old October 25th, 2017, 10:34 AM
Hyphen's Avatar
Hyphen Hyphen is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Margate, Brisbane
Posts: 1,044
Gallery : 10
Hyphen Citizen+Hyphen Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
You have to appreciate the problem space. A ship board laser is designed to effective over 10's of thousands of kilometers. A ground based one, less than 100.
Oh, I absolutely appreciate the problem space, which is why I put in my disclaimer about "reality" versus "playability".

Your argument is the same as the one put forward in TNE (as you pointed out later). This is one reason I play MT instead. ;-)

BTW, maybe I should point out that the "TNE explanation" is an in-game one: "the lasers need to be much bigger to function at all, so therefore the laser becomes way more powerful in comparison the ground-based lasers" is, when you think about it, just a handwave to explain allowing larger, more "realistic" weaponry in the rules.

I mean, it's a good handwave, but it's really still a handwave (since lasers of that size and power do not exist). It's an in-game reason; the meta game reason was to try and imagine the capabilities of such a laser, should it ever exist, and work out the consequences.

Thus it becomes a simulation, rather than a game. It's not about playability; it's more about plausibility.

Here's an example where playability was trampled on in a ruleset. I briefly played in a game run under Rifts rules (well, it *was* 30 years ago, I *think* it was Rifts). Anyway, they used a system where different pieces of hardware were simply on different orders of magnitude. If a mid-class weapon shot a mid-class target, you rolled damage normally. If a mega-class weapon shot a mid-class target, damage was increased by a factor of 100 (from memory): the mid-class target usually ceased to exist. Similarly, a mid-class weapon wuld not event scratch the paint of a mega-class target.

To me, this wasn't "fun": having to constantly select the correct damage exponent, for one thing; but mostly by the stonewall effect of the referee rocking up with a mega-class target that we couldn't touch. The game system may as well have labelled them, "Untouchable Referee MacGuffin Here".

To me, that shouldn't be necessary. "There are not many problems that cannot be solved by the suitable application of high explosives", as my Taglines say. If the players are sufficiently inventive, they ought to be able to blow anything up, in other words.

Or, in metagame terms, you shouldn't have to stonewall the PCs with mega-equipment. It's amateurish, like dropping an iron golem in front of 3rd level PCs in order to stop them going somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
And you find yourself moving into TNE FF&S territory...
Exactly! And you don't want to go there. Or, if you do, then go there and play TNE. (That's fine to do, BTW. Those rules are perfectly fine and valid, and I've even stolen things from them for my house rules: e.g. Contacts in chargen, Hiver Guns which I've calculated but yet to put into my MT Weapons Tables, etc. etc.).

But in this thread we're talking MT, not TNE. ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
There's nothing stopping you from mounting an auto cannon, or rapid fire plasma gun in a pintle mount on the bow of your Free Trader
And I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
hey since it's right next door, may as well unload with the auto cannon AND the laser.
And I do... :-D

Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
(I guess you mean RFZ-16, not RPZ, as it does not exist)
You are correct. I was calling it the Rapid Pulse Z-Gun, since the MT notations are... redundant. If it's A, B, or C, it's automatically a plasma weapon; if it's X, Y, or Z it's a fusion gun. The addition of the middle "P" (e.g. RPA-14) or "F" (RFZ-16) is not really necessary; like "ATM machine".

Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
The RFZ-16 uses 123.4 Mw. IIRC, the combat round is 15 seconds, so it means 1851 Mj. As it has a ROF of 40, each shoot delivers about 46.25 Mw power, equivalent to pen 79/5 and 30 dmg...
[..]
The Plaser-8 uses 250 MW and has no ROF listed (so we'll asume 1 shoot per round). So, as it delivers about 3750 Mj it is about 80 times more power than the RFZ-16.
So this assumes the weapons fire continually for the entire 15 seconds. Not sure how reasonable that is. ;-)

BTW, MT combat rounds are 6 seconds long, not 15 (Player's Handbook, p 67). So it's 40 shots in 6 seconds. The ships laser can fire once during the same time period (although I can't remember where that's from; maybe Striker).

Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Of course, this may also be affected by the dispersión (shown in danger space), that would reduce the energy delivered by the Plaser, so the 60 hits it would deliver with your rules may well be correct...
Well at least that's something. ;-)

My point of view is more from the other side: the play balance side. The side which asks: do you really WANT to have to increase the effect of your ship's armour, or increase its Damage Points so that the potential damage resulting from a 500d6 hit resembles what would have occurred under High Guard, rather than total overkill? Because by increasing armour or Hull Damage points, you also prevent PCs from blasting out the windows in the Annic Nova to effect entry, or other "interesting" effects of weapons aboard in space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
BTW, you say the Blaser has a range of 1250 km. Where do you take this number from? in the table in page 80 of the PM it is listed as Far Orbit range (so about 0.5 Mkm).
That's the range in atmosphere. Can't remember where that's from, either - maybe Striker again. Guess I'll have to go look it up. ;-)
__________________
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson
Beowulf Down/Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520
Titles:Awards:
- Count Zuiar (Dagu 0705)- Starburst for Extreme Heroism - Pursuits at Alell
- Baroness Heidi Maria Heyerdahl, Tavonni (Spin 1520)- MCG - Final Victory at Emerald
- Baron Sii (Dagu 0932)TAS:
- Ritter of Tavonni (Spin 1520)- Bearer (Ley: Silver 0221); Bearer (Lish: Zemud 0212)
Coins:(#170) XO (Lt) FE Holmes, 154th BR Sq
(#222) PlatLdr (LtO2), 3P, ΔTrp (G-Tank), 2B (LI), 4518th(#282) XO (LtO2), ΒCo (J-Trp), 6B (JT), 4518th
Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old October 25th, 2017, 10:45 AM
Hyphen's Avatar
Hyphen Hyphen is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Margate, Brisbane
Posts: 1,044
Gallery : 10
Hyphen Citizen+Hyphen Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlobrand View Post
Perhaps we need something like that, a maximum damage level beyond which the laser is considered to have burned straight through and out the other side, thereby inflicting only a fraction of its full power.
I still think you are thinking "TNE", not MegaTraveller. ;-)
__________________
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson
Beowulf Down/Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520
Titles:Awards:
- Count Zuiar (Dagu 0705)- Starburst for Extreme Heroism - Pursuits at Alell
- Baroness Heidi Maria Heyerdahl, Tavonni (Spin 1520)- MCG - Final Victory at Emerald
- Baron Sii (Dagu 0932)TAS:
- Ritter of Tavonni (Spin 1520)- Bearer (Ley: Silver 0221); Bearer (Lish: Zemud 0212)
Coins:(#170) XO (Lt) FE Holmes, 154th BR Sq
(#222) PlatLdr (LtO2), 3P, ΔTrp (G-Tank), 2B (LI), 4518th(#282) XO (LtO2), ΒCo (J-Trp), 6B (JT), 4518th
Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old October 25th, 2017, 10:49 AM
Hyphen's Avatar
Hyphen Hyphen is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Margate, Brisbane
Posts: 1,044
Gallery : 10
Hyphen Citizen+Hyphen Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
I don't recall lasers having an explosive effect, as compared to meson or fusion guns.
I'll have to look that up. MT has them with a DS of 45 m (Player's, p 80), but this may be an errata (erratum?) since it is the SAME as for plasma & fusion guns(!); in my Weapons Tables, lasers have a DS of 9 m.

Will have to go back and check.
__________________
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson
Beowulf Down/Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520
Titles:Awards:
- Count Zuiar (Dagu 0705)- Starburst for Extreme Heroism - Pursuits at Alell
- Baroness Heidi Maria Heyerdahl, Tavonni (Spin 1520)- MCG - Final Victory at Emerald
- Baron Sii (Dagu 0932)TAS:
- Ritter of Tavonni (Spin 1520)- Bearer (Ley: Silver 0221); Bearer (Lish: Zemud 0212)
Coins:(#170) XO (Lt) FE Holmes, 154th BR Sq
(#222) PlatLdr (LtO2), 3P, ΔTrp (G-Tank), 2B (LI), 4518th(#282) XO (LtO2), ΒCo (J-Trp), 6B (JT), 4518th
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rant; avoid Gator Games for buy backs. Blue Ghost Random Static 4 June 28th, 2010 07:13 PM
Merchant cruisers, the Millenium Falcon, and the profit imperative: a rant of sorts Black Globe Generator The Fleet 72 April 4th, 2006 06:03 PM
The Crossroads (long, rant, melodramatic) T. Foster Pre-Release Discussion 13 May 31st, 2001 08:42 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.