Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > General Traveller Discussions > Imperial Research Station

Imperial Research Station A forum for discussing technology and related topics for use in the Traveller Universe

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 13th, 2019, 05:38 PM
l_c_jackson l_c_jackson is offline
Citizen: SOC-9
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Godalming
Posts: 49
Gallery : 0
l_c_jackson Citizen
Default How does the explosive behaviour of TDX vary in different gravitational fields?

Gentlesophonts, how does the explosive behaviour of TDX vary in different gravitational fields?

TDX gravitationally polarised explosive has been a part of Traveller since at least MegaTraveller (Players Manual pg 94). It was obviously borrowed from the "Cities in Flight" novels, by James Blish. http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=2460

Imagine that you have an armoured test firing chamber, equipped with powerful grav plates. You place in the chamber a small charge of TDX, and a remote detonator. The chamber has a small blast-proof window, with a high-speed 3D multi-wavelength camera outside, pointing in. Your multi-species, & multi-gender research team seal the door, set the gravitational field to the desired value, and retreat behind a further blast shield. A flashing light starts and a warning klaxon sounds. After a short countdown, the camera rolls, and the charge is triggered.

In your Traveller universe, how does TDX behave differently if it is detonated in zero-gravity, or in micro-gravity? Does it detonate at all?

What happens to TDX in common planetary surface gravitational fields that happen to be slightly lower, or higher than standard? Could the explosion be slightly more, or slightly less violent?

Please share your thoughts! Thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old May 13th, 2019, 06:22 PM
McPerth's Avatar
McPerth McPerth is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 7,703
Gallery : 0
Visit McPerth's Blog
McPerth has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by l_c_jackson View Post
TDX gravitationally polarised explosive has been a part of Traveller since at least MegaTraveller (Players Manual pg 94). It was obviously borrowed from the "Cities in Flight" novels, by James Blish. http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=2460
In fact since before, as it apeared in JTAS 1, when Traveller was just Traveller...

I'd suggest you to look at this old thread.

Not that it answered too much, though...
__________________
Duke of ShaiaVland 3215 B64A998-E
Marquis of Ashtagz Tyui SR 1818C548786-8
SEH for actions in Extolay

I'm not afraid about bullets, what scares me is the speed at which they're incoming.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old May 13th, 2019, 08:20 PM
kilemall kilemall is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,693
Gallery : 0
kilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizen
Default

I never saw the big to-do about TDX. I would care about it if I was a lumberjack or firing spring mines against giant alien races or animals, otherwise blah.


I guess if I were doing an off-the-cuff ruling, I'd say TDX has a rating for each range of G, and gets a higher or lower amount of whatever gravitically sensitive material in the explosives defines the shape of the detonation.


If a TDX charge is set off in a non-matching G-field, it would create a bowl pointed down for world heavier then rated G charges, and a bowl with edges pointed up for world lighter then rated G charges.



Hmm, now that I think on it, I'd want what I will provisionally call TDX-V, for vertical, perpendicular to the plane of gravity. That would be helpful for shearing off a cliff for resource extraction or intentional avalanche, cutting that pesky monorail, or slicing an asteroid in half.


Taking the idea further, TDX should come in little 1kg bits that a professional demolitionist would use to pack custom charges for special effects.
__________________
YUMV- Your Universe May Vary.
YOMD- Your Opinion May Differ.

Last edited by kilemall; May 14th, 2019 at 11:33 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old May 13th, 2019, 11:39 PM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,373
Gallery : 56
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilemall View Post
I never saw the big to-do about TDX. I would care about it if I was a lumberjack or firing spring mines against giant alien races or animals, otherwise blah.


I guess if I were doing an off-the-cuff ruling, I'd say TDX has a rating for each range of G, and gets a higher or lower amount of whatever gravitically sensitive material in the explosives defines the shape of the detonation.


If a TDX charge is set off in a non-matching G-field, it would create a bowl pointed down for world heavier then rated G charges, and a bowl with edges pointed up for world lighter then rated G charges.



Hmm, now that I think on it, I'd want what I will provisionally call TDX-V, for vertical. That would be helpful for shearing off a cliff for resource extraction or intentional avalanche, cutting that pesky monorail, or slicing an asteroid in half.
That would be ODX, One-dimensional explosive. Great for anti-vehicle mines, lousy for anti-infantry popups.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old May 14th, 2019, 05:23 AM
Redcap Redcap is offline
Baron
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 868
Gallery : 0
Redcap Citizen
Default

My take would be yeah, it needs to be have different velocity ratings depending on the strength of the local gravitational strength.

Here comes a Rogers Rules House Rule...

PDX in different gravity fields...

PDX, or Polarised Detonation Explosives, which is the Imperial Standard Organisation (ISO) family name for TDX and OXD, is rated by most commercial sources for use in a 1-2 Gee field.

There's no point, after all, having an explosive that works fine in a 1 to 2 Gee field, if you're in a 3 to 4 gee field; the power of the blast wave (the velocity rating has a major effect on this) drops off in a shorter distance, so for higher G-ratings, you need more powerful explosives.

These are, of course, more expensive than 1-2G rated PDX.

Ratings bands are not per UWP Size rating, but by the local Gee (relative to an ISO-norm 1G) rating. Gravity ratings for PDX are listed in 2-gee brackets, thus ratings are as follows:

Gee .. Cost multiplier ... Availability
1-2 ... Normal ... ... ... Normal
3-4 ... x (1d6+2) ... ... Most tech A and above worlds
5-6 ... x (2d6+5) ... ... 30% tech A and above worlds
7-8 ... x (4d6+8) ... ... 1% tech A and above worlds ("rare as hens teeth")

Enjoy
__________________
Cheers,
Roger

Roger's Land Grabs

Knight of Deneb, Reft 3030 Rampart A434200-F
Knight of Deneb, Spin 2124 Lunion A995984-D
Baron Burtson, Spin 2534 Burtson C562667-8
Vicount Extolay, Spin 1711 Extolay B55589A-A
Count Lunion, Spin 2124 Lunion A995984-D
MCG (Extolay), FFW Medal, CCM (1), OSM (3), ISM (10 Years), Wound badge
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old May 14th, 2019, 08:19 AM
l_c_jackson l_c_jackson is offline
Citizen: SOC-9
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Godalming
Posts: 49
Gallery : 0
l_c_jackson Citizen
Default Back to basics - proposed answers

1. TDX is an explosive, so it is chemically unstable, and detonates relatively easily.

2. It responds to the presence (or absence) of a gravitational field AFTER it detonates, and not before.

3. Thus, logically, in zero-gravity TDX must first detonate, and only then look around going "Huh - where's the gravity gone?" Like user "shield", I would operationalise that "confused" explosive as an omnidirectional blast, but of correspondingly reduced power.

4. The energy content of any known chemical explosive does not depend on the surrounding gravitational field, so why should TDX be any different? Gravity merely focusses the blast into a particular direction.

5. Thus, at a particular maximum gravity for which the explosive is designed (let's say 1g for argument) the blast effect is maximised, and disk-shaped.

6. Any higher gravity has no effect, beyond reducing the range that debris and shrapnel will travel before hitting the ground. You could operationalise that as a reduced blast radius.

7. Lower gravitational fields however will cause the blast to partially spread outside the plane of the gravitational field. That means less damage horizontally, and more damage vertically. That would be a blast radius of a different shape - more spherical, less of a disk.


I'm not going to go into ODX (great idea though). Jack Vance had something vaguely similar in his "Durdane" novels, in the form of expanding slivers of freezing crystal (in "The Brave Free Men").

Thanks all for your interesting ideas, and useful references.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old May 14th, 2019, 11:54 AM
Condottiere Condottiere is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,465
Gallery : 0
Condottiere Citizen++Condottiere Citizen++Condottiere Citizen++Condottiere Citizen++
Default

Now that I think of it, it's a variation on a shape charge.

What mechanism creates this particular focus of force?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old May 14th, 2019, 01:00 PM
Fovean Fovean is offline
Knight
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Crescent City
Posts: 379
Gallery : 0
Fovean Citizen+Fovean Citizen+
Default

It seems there needs to be a knoodling pin or gadget that initiates the gravity shape before the charge goes off. A variation of a grav belt?... It would only need to enforce the disk shape at the moment of detonation, the rest would occur naturally.

So then maybe the charges are like the flaming spouts in the ROUS's woods... there's a give-away sound or vibration (the knoodling pin creating the grav-disk) that can warn alert targets of the danger moments before the detonation.

The gadget could be tuned to operate at up to 90 degrees perpendicular to the local plane. Bonus, it would know the local gravity and adjust its force parameters accordingly, allowing consistent performance regardless of local G.

Or assume 1G sensitivity is the manufacturing norm and divide it by local G for the damage and area-of-effect multiplier.
__________________
Knight of the Iridium Throne : Meiz (Core 2225)
Knight of Deneb : Helifil (Reft 0313)
SEH with Diamonds : The Assault on Menorb
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old May 14th, 2019, 05:37 PM
kilemall kilemall is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,693
Gallery : 0
kilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizen
Default

The thought I had behind my effects description was that the explosive itself is sensitive to the gravitational field- if it was just shaped charge the gravitics component could be ignored. So, part of that 'understanding and manipulating gravity' thing transposed onto an explosive.


If you had some sort of gravitic field emanating from a device in the center of the explosive, no need to bother with the intermediate explosive bit, just use that grav field generator as a buzzsaw.


In a sense this tech could be precursor to the PGMP/FGMPs, which after all are long-range plasma bolts that hold together their field coherently, only in a directional pointy end manner.
__________________
YUMV- Your Universe May Vary.
YOMD- Your Opinion May Differ.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old May 14th, 2019, 05:37 PM
nobby-w nobby-w is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: The High Weald.
Posts: 706
Gallery : 10
nobby-w Citizen+nobby-w Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
That would be ODX, One-dimensional explosive. Great for anti-vehicle mines, lousy for anti-infantry popups.
I did think about vertical TDX once but realised that you could achieve the same effect with a shaped charge.
__________________
My imaginary component makes me complex. This also means I'm allowed to eat quiche.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
gravity, tdx

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CT Only: The Imperial Gravitational Standard Supplement Four Classic Traveller 16 June 18th, 2019 12:59 PM
Gravitational waves detected Lycanorukke Random Static 6 February 13th, 2016 06:57 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.