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TWILIGHT: 2000 1E/2E Discussion of the Twilight: 2000 from GDW.

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Old June 16th, 2004, 07:16 AM
Olivera Olivera is offline
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As an avid Twilight 2000 fan, I was surprised to hear that a new Twilight sourcebook is in the works. However, I have major reservations about what I have heard so far about the new Twilight book.

1) Why is it set in the past rather than the future?

Twilight versions 1 and 2 appealed because they describe the horror of world war 3 occurring in the near future. Setting the new Twilight book in the past destroys the 'what if?' scenario that was a major draw of the old versions.

People also loved Twilight versions 1 and 2 because it allowed characters to get hold of the latest military gear (and even equipment that was just on the drawing board). Setting the new Twilight book in the year 2000 (now four years in the past) restricts the game to weapons that were historically available at that time. The old twilight let characters get their hands on state of the art equipment, the new twilight book only allows equipment from the past. For example, the new Twilight book rules out use of the Stryker armoured vehicle, F22 Raptor or OICW rifles. Are people going to buy new weapon and vehicle sourcebooks if they exclude equipment developed during the last seven years?

Setting a new Twilight book in the past also smacks of laziness. If it is set in the past why buy it rather than just using version 1 or 2 books?

2) Why does it use T20 rules?

Part of the original Twilight's appeal was it's accurate portrayal of modern day combat - this necessitates use of a custom rules system. Basing a new Twilight book on D20 rules is downright laughable. Original Twilight fans loved the game because of it's realism. How do character classes, levels and traits fit in with that? Simply put, D20 rules have no place in a game that is meant to accurately depict modern warfare. Can the D20 system used in the new Twilight accurately model API/HE/HEAT/APDU/HEDP/ICM/WP/etc ammunition? Can it model the damage characteristics of different calibers? The recoil characteristics of individual weapons? The penetration characteristics of a round at different ranges? The different reload rates of bolt action, pump action, lever action and semi-automatic weapons? Indirect fire from mortars? The stabilization properties of different tanks? Reactive and spaced armour on vehicles? I doubt the D20 system can do any of this, yet that is what players want in a Twilight system.

3) Will the new Twilight book look more attractive and professional than the older Twilight products?

I have studied recent qli/rpgrealms D20 products, and in my opinion the artwork, layout, typesetting and production values of these products lags far behind most of the original twilight books, most noticeably version 2 of Twilight 2000. Can the new Twilight 2000 book offer better artwork than that found in the core version 2 rulebook? Can it offer better vehicle illustrations and colour templates than the version 2 vehicle handbooks? Again, I reckon the new Twilight book will be inferior in these areas.

To sum up, what will the new Twilight 2000 book offer me over versions 1 and 2? The original twilight players loved the 'what if' timeline and it's depiction of modern combat, yet the new twilight book is set four years in the past (and counting) and uses a wholly inappropriate rules system.

As an avid and long term Twilight fan, I feel that the new book is not what original Twilight players want.
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Old June 16th, 2004, 11:01 AM
Nearside Nearside is offline
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Wow, what a great thoughtful post...

I find it hard to disagree. I really liked the old Twilight system, though we tweaked it a little in our games.

In fact, we found ourselves using a variation of it in our Traveller games around the same time...
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Old June 16th, 2004, 11:50 AM
Morte Morte is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Olivera:
laziness
That was my first thought.

Then I figured that if QLI think they can make a profit selling it to a mix of completist collectors (let's face it, most RPGs aren't bought to be played) and D20 types who like the setting, well they're welcome to give it a go. It's not like anyone is forced to buy the book.

Still, I would also quite like to see a bold and inventive military RPG set in the year 2020.
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Old June 16th, 2004, 06:16 PM
TKalbfus TKalbfus is offline
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Twilight 2000 is now an alternate history, it is set in the Year 2000 in an alternate history, in that history the Cold War did not end and in fact exploded. Perhaps someone though the Soviet Union was crumbling and decided to kick in the door and the whole thing would come tumbling down, well they kicked it in too soon. The Soviet Union wasn't ready to go dying without a fight, it new its situation was hopeless with SDI being developed, so its only chance was to strike fast and hard while it still had a numerical superiority in conventional weapons over the NATO alliance. The Soviet Red Army and its Warsaw allies had their "asses kicked" and the NATO troops pressed their advantages too far and crossed into Soviet territory, this act unleashed the first use of nuclear weapons since the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The US retaliated in proportion to the first strike and then the Soviets reretaliated...
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Old June 16th, 2004, 06:55 PM
Erik Boielle Erik Boielle is offline
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Twilight 2000 v2.2 already was explicitly an alternative history.

Its charm for me these days is a sorta funny nostalgia for those exciting days when details of russian hardware were just starting to become clear in the west, and Tom Clancy was still writting thrillers about defecting soviet sub captains.

Nout wrong with still telling that story.

Go out and play some Operation: Flashpoint to remind yourself what it was like to have a worthy opponent.

And theres the thing.

You can't easily update the scenario without reaching some time in to the future.

A three way war between the US, EU and china over the worlds remaining oil supply, or something?

You could do that, I suppose, but its not really immediate, and its not really Twilight anymore either.

So while possibly T2K has now become an alternative future like Cyberpunk (well, eighties on steriods cyberpunk) and Steampunk (Call the genre Clancypunk?) its still kinda cool.
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Old June 16th, 2004, 11:53 PM
TKalbfus TKalbfus is offline
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Well actually T2K is an alternate present, that is the way I'd like to play it. I'd like to play T2K set in June 16, 2004 just like today. Except the today in that world is not the today that I am writing this message. In the today of that world, the USA is a wreck, most likely power coverage would be spotty. In Westchester County from which I'm writing, you can climb a hill and see what's left of New york City in the distance. I suppose the people of my community in that alternate history would really hate the Russians, and even more so the French, because they were supposed to be our allies. A lot of people would have lost relatives 7 years ago, and many more would have died in the ensuing years. Besides the immediate deaths from the nuclear blasts, there was the radiation sickness that followed, and the disease and plague that was left untreated, then there were the bandits and the breakdown of modern society. Much of New York State was rural and the people here would have to move back to the farmland, the 8 million of us that are left. A number of county governments would survive after a fashion with national guard troops here and there. I think by this time a state government would have reformed; the natural inclination is toward the democracy that we were used to, though perhaps there are some warlords who would say otherwise. We would pull together and organize, take back our country and send out heroes to fight the bad guys.
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Old June 17th, 2004, 12:06 AM
Glen Allen Mcinnes Glen Allen Mcinnes is offline
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You foget that post Twilight their are no heros only people trying to suvive who later generasions will embeleish (motivasions if not actions) to create heros for future generations.

and D20 Twilight is nothing but a marketing ploy by the Borg of RPG's to drag all gaming down to the lowest choman denomator, why make it a stand alown game when you could just do it as a sorcebook for Modern and make sales off Modern and T2K players and ripoff two demographics insted of just parts of them.
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Old June 17th, 2004, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Olivera:
2) Why does it use T20 rules?

Part of the original Twilight's appeal was it's accurate portrayal of modern day combat - this necessitates use of a custom rules system. Basing a new Twilight book on D20 rules is downright laughable. Original Twilight fans loved the game because of it's realism. How do character classes, levels and traits fit in with that? Simply put, D20 rules have no place in a game that is meant to accurately depict modern warfare. Can the D20 system used in the new Twilight accurately model API/HE/HEAT/APDU/HEDP/ICM/WP/etc ammunition? Can it model the damage characteristics of different calibers? The recoil characteristics of individual weapons? The penetration characteristics of a round at different ranges? The different reload rates of bolt action, pump action, lever action and semi-automatic weapons? Indirect fire from mortars? The stabilization properties of different tanks? Reactive and spaced armour on vehicles? I doubt the D20 system can do any of this, yet that is what players want in a Twilight system.
Funny, I heard the same things when we announced the development of T20.

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Old June 17th, 2004, 12:46 AM
hunter hunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by 313:
D20 Twilight is nothing but a marketing ploy by the Borg of RPG's to drag all gaming down to the lowest choman denomator, why make it a stand alown game when you could just do it as a sorcebook for Modern and make sales off Modern and T2K players and ripoff two demographics insted of just parts of them.
That would be interesting except for the fact that we don't own d20 Modern and thus make nothing off the sales of that book, and the fact that Twilight isn't based off of the d20 Modern rules...


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Old June 17th, 2004, 01:19 AM
Glen Allen Mcinnes Glen Allen Mcinnes is offline
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Sorry for the venom of my last post but I'v seen what D20 did to "Legend of the Five Rings" the game whent from storys to be told to monsters to be slay and tresure to steal (only in kimonos), thankfully T20 never made it to my neck of the woods so I have not bean exposed to munchikins trying to pass off a dungen crawl as Traveller ,I know the old hands can run a real Traveller game with T20 but their are so few of us (around my part of the world)that i'd be more likily to find a game of space munchikn, so the idear of D20 claming an other old favorite (infact the first RPG I ever played) kind of got to me
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