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The Fleet Ship designs, strategies, and tactics.

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  #1  
Old November 20th, 2015, 10:47 AM
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Default External collapsible tanks

I guess it needs not to be insisited about the limitations to jump (or multiple ones) imposed by fuel needs.

To overcome them, several options have been proposed:

Fuel for multiple jumps: the easiest, but also the least usable, as it needs to devote large parts of the volumen to fuel. Mostly useful at low TLs, or in ships with low jump capability.

Drop tanks: Being external, they don't use internal volumen, but they need to be mounted at each stop or them make your ship larger, with the performace (in jump and maneuver) reduction that means

Tankers: large ships devoted to cary fuel. They need to be ruly enormous, as they need fuel or themselves (twice, if they are to return from where no fuel is available) aside from that carried to distribution. That means that a J3 tanker, needing 60% of the volumen for itself and about 10% more for drives, crew, etc... could only carry about 30% of their volumen as fuel for distribution, and a J4 one could carry less tan 10% of its volume for it (in MT, due to lessened jump fuel requirements, those numbers are different).

Collapsible/dismountable tanks: Devoting part of the hold to fuel, either in a semi-permanent way (dismountable) or in an inflable tank that does not use space when not inflated (collapsible).

My proposal in this thread would be for a mix among drop and collapsible tanks: External collapsible tanks.

Those tanks are as collapsible ones but taken extrernally, and folded (with an inernal wire system) as they empty themselves as fuel is used. The folding mechanism would use some space, though (about 0.5% of their infalted volume).

Advantages:
  • Minimal use of space (little more than drop tanks)
  • Allow for another jump (as drop tanks)
  • Reusable
  • Don't increase the size of the ship when folded
Drawbacks
  • Being unarmored they are fragile
  • Built on light materials, they cannot hold fuel indefinitelly (they leack some hydrogen)
  • Installing them needs some refitting (as the folded tanks must be adapted)
  • When inflated they increase size (as drop tanks)
  • When inflated, they make thi ship unstreamlined, regardless its true configuration
  • They cannot be inflated by skipping (corolary of the former point)

Game use:
  • They can be installed at any C+ starport at the expense (in volume) of 0.5% of their inflated volume and at the same cost of drop tanks (Cr 10000+1000 per ton of capacity). Installing them takes a week (but can be done at the same time of annual maintenance).
  • When inflated, they function as drop tanks, but they slowly leack fuel, not being able to jump with its fuel after a week of inflating them (assuming their capacity os that of 1 jump)
  • Any hit received while they are inflated destroys (1d6-1)x 10% of them, even if the hit produces no other damage (any no effect result)
  • When folded, they are considered as internal to the ship, not having any effect (aside from the volume needed, as told above).

Ideas? thoughts?
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  #2  
Old November 20th, 2015, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
I guess it needs not to be insisited about the limitations to jump (or multiple ones) imposed by fuel needs.

To overcome them, several options have been proposed:

Fuel for multiple jumps: the easiest, but also the least usable, as it needs to devote large parts of the volumen to fuel. Mostly useful at low TLs, or in ships with low jump capability.

Drop tanks: Being external, they don't use internal volumen, but they need to be mounted at each stop or them make your ship larger, with the performace (in jump and maneuver) reduction that means

Tankers: large ships devoted to cary fuel. They need to be ruly enormous, as they need fuel or themselves (twice, if they are to return from where no fuel is available) aside from that carried to distribution. That means that a J3 tanker, needing 60% of the volumen for itself and about 10% more for drives, crew, etc... could only carry about 30% of their volumen as fuel for distribution, and a J4 one could carry less tan 10% of its volume for it (in MT, due to lessened jump fuel requirements, those numbers are different).

Collapsible/dismountable tanks: Devoting part of the hold to fuel, either in a semi-permanent way (dismountable) or in an inflable tank that does not use space when not inflated (collapsible).

My proposal in this thread would be for a mix among drop and collapsible tanks: External collapsible tanks.

Those tanks are as collapsible ones but taken extrernally, and folded (with an inernal wire system) as they empty themselves as fuel is used. The folding mechanism would use some space, though (about 0.5% of their infalted volume).

Advantages:
  • Minimal use of space (little more than drop tanks)
  • Allow for another jump (as drop tanks)
  • Reusable
  • Don't increase the size of the ship when folded
Drawbacks
  • Being unarmored they are fragile
  • Built on light materials, they cannot hold fuel indefinitelly (they leack some hydrogen)
  • Installing them needs some refitting (as the folded tanks must be adapted)
  • When inflated they increase size (as drop tanks)
  • When inflated, they make thi ship unstreamlined, regardless its true configuration
  • They cannot be inflated by skipping (corolary of the former point)

Game use:
  • They can be installed at any C+ starport at the expense (in volume) of 0.5% of their inflated volume and at the same cost of drop tanks (Cr 10000+1000 per ton of capacity). Installing them takes a week (but can be done at the same time of annual maintenance).
  • When inflated, they function as drop tanks, but they slowly leack fuel, not being able to jump with its fuel after a week of inflating them (assuming their capacity os that of 1 jump)
  • Any hit received while they are inflated destroys (1d6-1)x 10% of them, even if the hit produces no other damage (any no effect result)
  • When folded, they are considered as internal to the ship, not having any effect (aside from the volume needed, as told above).

Ideas? thoughts?

Rather interesting. But they need to be jettisoned if the ship enters combat. But for commercial ships they could be a rather useful tool. There needs to be lets say a scoop and filtering system and the bypass to fill these inflatable H-tanks.
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Old November 20th, 2015, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffBates View Post
Rather interesting. But they need to be jettisoned if the ship enters combat. But for commercial ships they could be a rather useful tool. There needs to be lets say a scoop and filtering system and the bypass to fill these inflatable H-tanks.
Not necessarily jettisoned, just folded (after all they are thought to be inflated just for the jump).

I thought abut filling from the tanks themselves (so with already refined fuel if you have a pruifier plant) while then filling the tanks again (if you do it with unrefied fuel, you have the whole jump time to refine it it).
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Old November 20th, 2015, 07:08 PM
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There needs to be some structural element to keep the bolts from being yanked out when you're running around with several 1000 dTons of fuel in baggies.

Basically, some kind of reinforcement at the cables end points, or something.
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Old November 20th, 2015, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
There needs to be some structural element to keep the bolts from being yanked out when you're running around with several 1000 dTons of fuel in baggies.
Thats what came to my mind.

When the bags are inside the ship (the standard version) they are handled by the inertial comp system. The standard external tank (or drop tank) is a rigid structure bolted to the ship. Bags are on the outside are not handled by the the inertial comp system and lack a rigid structure, so spin your M-drive up and watch the bags rip off or bulge and rupture, with the additional bonus of your ships agility would be reduced to 'drunken cow' level.

And then of course there is the micro-meteor problem as well.
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Old November 20th, 2015, 10:16 PM
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Zeppelins; or blimps; I think some people do come across this idea to add the minimum ballast required for a transition with a smallcraft.

But it also indicates likely maximum acceleration.
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Old November 21st, 2015, 12:17 AM
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I don't think the collapsible tanks can be installed outside the hull.

IIRC, they are placed in the cargo hold, which increases your range, but at the expense of, hey, no cargo!
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Old November 21st, 2015, 01:36 AM
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I'd call it the Blood Eagle Gambit.
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Old November 21st, 2015, 04:20 AM
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I believe that the original specs for the fuel bladders is that they used 10% of the volume in the cargo bay when empty so it might be that you are off by an order of magnitude on the deflated volume.

Next issue is the ship that the bladder mounted on 6g? Can the full bladder hold up to that level (or any level) of acceleration?

The internal fuel bladder has the walls of the cargo bay and internal g-comp fields, perhaps if you built a g-comp for the filled volume of the bladder. (Rules for per M3 per G cost mass power and volume given in the FF&S rules *(TNE and T4) The G-comp rating is the maximum acceleration the ship may sustain when the bladder is full. (varies by TL)

Full bladders are not airframe, but might be made to be streamlined, however they limit speed in atmosphere to low subsonic levels due to lack of a rigid surface high speed airflow will rip open the bladders.

I would have fairing panels that cover the deflated bladder and g-comp equipment to restore streamlining when deflated and this volume of the bladder, g-comp and fairing panels all be counted as part of the internal volume of the ship. These fairing panels may be armored to the same level of armor as the basic hull, providing protection from battle damage the same as the rest of the hull.
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Old November 21st, 2015, 04:56 AM
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If the technology exists to pump fuel from drop tanks into the jump drive system within the timeframe of jump operation, then what you propose is to make a collapsible 'drop' tank that folds up as the fuel is transferred to the drive or internal tanks.

If such a thing is possible why not just use a fueling station or tender and a really long hose - transfer the fuel during jump prep?
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Last edited by mike wightman; November 21st, 2015 at 06:06 AM..
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