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In the OTU In the Official Traveller Universe. Any milieux that's been published in any edition. Not for discussion of rules except in reference to how they reflect the OTU

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  #11  
Old August 26th, 2019, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by tjoneslo View Post
What may provide an interesting source of potential names is to go through the barrack emperor's list.
I was looking at that last night. The common versions of the list only have family names for the Emperor who started the Civil War (Plankwell) and the one who ended it (Alkhalikoi).
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  #12  
Old August 26th, 2019, 12:37 PM
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Imperial encyclopedia p.9-10. The emperor of the flag. The canon list of barracks emperors.
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  #13  
Old August 26th, 2019, 12:53 PM
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Going back to the eventual megacorps of the 3I being great houses of the Sylean Federation.

Are we to take seriously the idea that Cleon Industries begat the 3I and then several decades later upon re-contact with Vland allows the pitiful remnants of the Vilani megacorps to build up in scale to rival Cleon Industries?

Cobblers.

It is much more likely that the 3I 'Vilani' megacorporations are actually rebuilt from the companies and houses that survived within the Sylean Federation and then absorbed the remnants of their ancestors around Vland.
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  #14  
Old August 26th, 2019, 01:43 PM
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Here is what TD18 has to say about that:

"Vilani participation in establishing the Imperium: Vland joind the Third Imperium soon after its formation. This allowed the Imperium to expand into the only frontier available: Corridor, deneb, and Spinward Marches sectors.
The Imperium also benefited by bringing the three Vilani megacorporations (Naasirka, Makhidkarum, and Sharurshid) under the same banner as the Sylean industrial base, working to expand the Imperium and their markets...."

So the bureau were not part of Sylea but came on later.

But I agree that it makes sense to look to the eventual megacorps to search for the great 9 houses. Excluding the Vilani bureau, we have the following:

TD18 IDs these 4 as "the Sylean industrial base" and M0 has the same:
GSbAG
Ling Standard
Tukera
Zirunkariish

Then M0 adds the following megacorps:
Baldang Arms
InStarSpec
Sternmetal

I think it is in those last 3 plus GSbAG were we are likely to find other members of the 9, though the Lentuli are probably one of them. (My conjecture is that the Lentuli are behind GSbAG.)
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  #15  
Old August 26th, 2019, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vegas View Post
Here is what TD18 has to say about that:

"Vilani participation in establishing the Imperium: Vland joind the Third Imperium soon after its formation. This allowed the Imperium to expand into the only frontier available: Corridor, deneb, and Spinward Marches sectors.
The Imperium also benefited by bringing the three Vilani megacorporations (Naasirka, Makhidkarum, and Sharurshid) under the same banner as the Sylean industrial base, working to expand the Imperium and their markets...."

So the bureau were not part of Sylea but came on later.

But I agree that it makes sense to look to the eventual megacorps to search for the great 9 houses. Excluding the Vilani bureau, we have the following:

TD18 IDs these 4 as "the Sylean industrial base" and M0 has the same:
GSbAG
Ling Standard
Tukera
Zirunkariish

Then M0 adds the following megacorps:
Baldang Arms
InStarSpec
Sternmetal

I think it is in those last 3 plus GSbAG were we are likely to find other members of the 9, though the Lentuli are probably one of them. (My conjecture is that the Lentuli are behind GSbAG.)
Add to that list Zuan Kerr from TD #15.

So our possibilities are:
  1. House Zhunastu - (Zhunastu Industries)
  2. House Kerr - (?)
  3. House Lentuli - (?)
  4. House Ling - (Ling Standard Products)
  5. House Tukera - (Tukera Lines)
  6. House Shiishuginsa - (Zirunkariish)
  7. House (?) - (GSbAG)
  8. House (?) - (Baldang Arms)
  9. House (?) - (InStarSpec)
  10. House (Stern ?) - (Sternmetal)
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  #16  
Old August 26th, 2019, 07:58 PM
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@tjoneslo

I think that is a great idea, but with exception of Plankwell (the first) and Alkhalikoi (the last), we don't get a family name or background for any of the Emperors of the Flag, so there isn't anything to go on.

Both Ramon I and Constantus were proclaimed Emperor by the Moot after defeating a self-proclaimed usurper. Both of those are good candidates for insiders that returned to power. (At the very least, they appear to be more acceptable to the insiders than the usurpers.) Just don't know who they represent.

In that regard, looking prior to the civil war, both Jerome and Jaquline I ascended the throne by moot election when there was no dynastic succesor. I would bet that both of them hailed from different Arela Committee Houses, but we don't know which.

@whulorigan

That is a nice addition - other senators/moot members from the period. That suggests as well Houses that date back to pre-Imperial times, which gives one more candidate: House Aella.

The problem with Kerr and Aella is that there isn't evidence (that I can find) that they were that powerful, at the start of the Imperium. But the fact that they were around, means they at least could have been.

Do we know any other early Dukes? We do know House Tauribi were the Archdukes of the Domain of Vland. Plausible they were a great House too, but also plausible that the Lentuli were rewarding an ally.
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Old August 26th, 2019, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
It is much more likely that the 3I 'Vilani' megacorporations are actually rebuilt from the companies and houses that survived within the Sylean Federation and then absorbed the remnants of their ancestors around Vland.
The more I read of M:0 Campaign, the more House Shiishuginsa (owners of Zirunkariish) makes sense. Vland was a strong but fairly small state by the end of the Long Night. They had been contacted by Sylea 400 years prior and had brushed them off, but that contact restarted Vland anyway, and by the time Cleon came calling the Vilani were better listeners. Zirunkariish bankrolled a lot of that 400 years of prosperity and likely brokered Cleon's deal...

Because of the Sylean Reclamation, I can't see any local Bureaux remnants being among the Sylean successes. IIRC only one of them had previously operated in the area of Sylea to any extent, and they would have been cut off from the home office if they stayed.

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Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
[*]House (?) - (GSbAG)
Their entry in Milieu Zero Campaign suggests against that, though I suppose they could have been playing it sneaky. Not sure I like Lentuli being the harbingers of GSbAG either, given that they would turn into a very long-running dynasty on the Iridium Throne.

I can dig House Stern. Maybe Kerr and Ling...

M:0 Campaign, page 46 features one William Shigaka (or Shigaku), who is listed as a close friend and advisor of Cleon. Is that all, or is he from one of the Great Houses?
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  #18  
Old August 27th, 2019, 04:27 AM
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I just can not accept that the Sylean Federation and then Imperium would allow the Vilani megacorporations to rise above their own companies.

I can accept that within the Sylean Federation there were remnants of Vilani megacorporation 'houses' who owned Sylean businesses and then incorporated the Vilani remnants post recontact.

Basically Syleans of Vilani ancestry took over the vestiges of the corporations that had maintained some sort of continuity in the Vland area of influence through the Long Night.

The Vilani remained culturally biased against rising to TL12, and yet after incorporation within the Imperium they leap to TL13...
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Old August 27th, 2019, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
I just can not accept that the Sylean Federation and then Imperium would allow the Vilani megacorporations to rise above their own companies...
I don't think canon is on record that they did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
The Vilani remained culturally biased against rising to TL12, and yet after incorporation within the Imperium they leap to TL13...
This is explicitly denied by canon. The TL timeline goes like this:
IY0: Sylea TL12, Vland TL9
IY300: Sylea TL13, Vland TL11
source: MT:VV

Technology does not transfer very easily in the Imperium, and tech transfer from Sylea to Vland is no different. 300 years pass from Vland's entry into the Imperium, and Vland still hasn't reached the level of the Sylean industrial base at IY0, and that same base has moved one TL higher.

So I don't think canon supports that the Vilani megacorps rise above the Sylean. I picture them as 3 behemoths that we might assume have marketing muscle and assets in a lot of planets due to their history from the Ziru Sirka onward, but they are lower tech provider. They open markets and make profits, but don't get to capture as much value as the higher tech Syleans do. It might be analogous to the entry of the PRC into western trade, but with a technology lag that lasts centuries.
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Old August 27th, 2019, 02:28 PM
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The original three Bureaux took a significant demotion in the Third Imperium, rising to merely the status of megacorporation alongside several of the Sylean and Terran megacorps. It would take the Civil War in the 600s and the subsequent shift at Capital from Terran dominance to Vilani dominance for the old Bureaux to perhaps surpass the other megacorps, and even then LSP and Tukera remain stubbornly ubiquitous, among others.

The old Bureaux map in V&V indicates that the area around Capital was mixed, likely due to the Sylean Main being much too useful to have been tied up by one of them. M:0 strongly implies that Vilani Bureaux resources that weren't recalled to the area around Vland as the Rule of Man collapsed were lost in the Long Night. The narrative in M:0C makes some case for the Vilani bankers of Zirunkariish to be part of Cleon's cabal, but the rest were still growing around Vland at the Founding.

The Nine Families should include at least one of each of Terran, Vilani, and Sylean, and should probably slant toward the Sylean. Zhunastu appears to be a Sylean or regional name.
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