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  #1  
Old August 1st, 2014, 08:21 PM
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Default Book 2 1981 Small Craft

Hello all,

I have tried my hand at using the ship design sequence in Book 2 for the launch described on page 18.

My calculations with using power plant A = 4 tons, maneuver drive A = 1 ton, power plant fuel = 1 ton, and two control couches = 1 ton add up to 7 tons leaving 13 tons to customize the launch.

Cost is where I'm having my usual problem.

Hull = MCr2.2 + Power Plant MCr8.0 + Maneuver Drive MCr4.0 + Control Couches MCr0.05 + Hard point MCr0.1 = MCr14.35

Architect's Fee =MCr0.1435

Single unit Cost = MCr14.35 + MCr0.1435 =MCr14.4935

Quantity Discount = - MCr1.4350

Quantity Cost = MCr14.35 - MCr1.4350 = 12.9150

Apparently the listed cost is rounded to the nearest MCr for a single launch with or without the architects fee.

Does the above seem to be how the small craft may have been designed?
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Old August 1st, 2014, 08:37 PM
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The architect's fee is a one time cost for the plans needed to build a custom design. It is not added to every ship built as the plans already exist.

This is specifically stated in the earlier edition of book 2 and in the Traveller Book. I don't happen to have the 1981 edition, but if you check the relevant paragraph ("Naval Architecture" in my version) it should be there.
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Old August 2nd, 2014, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
Hello all,

I have tried my hand at using the ship design sequence in Book 2 for the launch described on page 18. ...
Don't do it! It's a trap!!

Seriously though, I see where you're going with this. Assume the drives are as small as they can get, so that's what the small craft use as well.

Issue: the small craft are standard designs. There is no architect fee.

"Standard plans are also available for the following small craft: 20-ton Launch, 30-ton Ship's Boat, 30-ton Slow Boat, 40-ton Pinnace, 40-ton Slow Pinnace, 50-ton Cutter, 95-ton Shuttle, and 10-ton Fighter."

Bigger issue: they don't line up.

Let's look at the launch your way.
ComponentCostMass
Hull w/ streamliningMCr2.2-
Power PlantMCr8.04
Maneuver DriveMCr41
Control Couches x2MCr0.051
Hard pointMCr0.1-
Fuel-1
Configurable-13
TotalMCr14.3520
ActualMCr1420
Bridge??no space


Okay so far, but there's a drive for a 100 dT ship in a 20 dT frame, and it's only providing 1G. Note that there's no room for a bridge. No controls on this puppy.

Now let's look at the Pinnace the same way:
ComponentCostMass
Hull w/ streamliningMCr4.4-
Power PlantMCr8.04
Maneuver DriveMCr41
Control Couches x2MCr0.051
Hard pointMCr0.1-
Fuel-2
Configurable-22.4
TotalMCr16.5530.4
ActualMCr2040
Bridge?3.45?9.6?


The Pinnace is actually performing like it has a PP-A/MD-A, but to get the cost and tonnage, it needs a bridge - a bridge of an odd size and price.

Now the Cutter:
ComponentCostMass
Hull w/ streamliningMCr5.5-
Power PlantMCr8.04
Maneuver DriveMCr41
Control Couches x2MCr0.051
Hard pointMCr0.1-
Fuel-2
Configurable-32.5
TotalMCr17.6540.5
ActualMCr2850
Bridge?10.35?9.5?


The Cutter likewise is performing like it has a PP-A/MD-A, but to get the cost and tonnage, it too needs an odd bridge, or maybe there's costs involved in the modular business. However, note that the space for the Cutter bridge is smaller than that for the Pinnace.

Let's try the Ship's Boat:
ComponentCostMass
Hull w/ streamliningMCr3.3-
Power PlantMCr8.04
Maneuver DriveMCr41
Control Couches x2MCr0.051
Hard pointMCr0.1-
Fuel-1.8
Configurable-13.7
TotalMCr15.4521.5
ActualMCr1630
Bridge?0.55?8.5?


See? The Ship's Boat too performs like it has an A/A, and like the Pinnace and Cutter it has extra space that might be a bridge, but there's little money for a bridge. And, there's no rhyme or reason to the extra space between the three, and no extra space on the Launch for whatever it is those three others are carrying. Nothing's adding up right.
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Last edited by Carlobrand; August 2nd, 2014 at 12:08 AM.. Reason: Formatting
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Old August 2nd, 2014, 02:41 AM
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Evening Piper,

Thank you very much for the reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper View Post
The architect's fee is a one time cost for the plans needed to build a custom design. It is not added to every ship built as the plans already exist.

This is specifically stated in the earlier edition of book 2 and in the Traveller Book. I don't happen to have the 1981 edition, but if you check the relevant paragraph ("Naval Architecture" in my version) it should be there.
Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the Traveller Book so I can't check that one out. Book 2 copyright 1977 had me confused from the start with the design sequence and by the time I got the 1981 copy in FFE 001 I was using Book 5.

Looking at the adventure in CT AM 3 started my review of the Vargr Corsair using Book 2 1981 and from there trying to figure out the small craft. this has led to my finding out I have been in error when calculating the discount price, even when using Book 5.

I have LBB Book 2 copyright 1977 and Book 2 copyright 1981 found in FFE 001. The first ship's total cost is the cost of the hull + components + the architect's fee. Follow on hulls the cost is the hull + components - 10% discount for standard designs.
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Old August 2nd, 2014, 04:19 AM
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Evening Carlobrand,

Thank you for once again replying to my whining for help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlobrand View Post
Don't do it! It's a trap!!
Too late, but thanks for the warning. Of course I've been trying to figure out the design sequence on and off for about thirty odd years.

Quote:
Seriously though, I see where you're going with this. Assume the drives are as small as they can get, so that's what the small craft use as well.
Small craft are non-starships which by the design rules omits the jump drive an to use use maneuver drives and power plants shown in the table on Book 2 1981 page 22. Following the process in order to get 13 tons available for customization the available maneuver drive and power plant are type A plus two control couches required for the pilot and rider per the rules under Small Craft Fittings on Book 2 1981 page 17.


Quote:
Issue: the small craft are standard designs. There is no architect fee.

"Standard plans are also available for the following small craft: 20-ton Launch, 30-ton Ship's Boat, 30-ton Slow Boat, 40-ton Pinnace, 40-ton Slow Pinnace, 50-ton Cutter, 95-ton Shuttle, and 10-ton Fighter."
Prior to becoming "standard designs" the first hull had to be designed which per the rules requires either an architect's fee of 1% or 1.5% of the hull's total cost.

If the small craft hulls are standard and they used the rules for non-starship design the standard price should reflect a 10% discount, which doesn't appear to have happened.

Quote:
Bigger issue: they don't line up.

Let's look at the launch your way.
ComponentCostMass
Hull w/ streamliningMCr2.2-
Power PlantMCr8.04
Maneuver DriveMCr41
Control Couches x2MCr0.051
Hard pointMCr0.1-
Fuel-1
Configurable-13
TotalMCr14.3520
ActualMCr1420
Bridge??no space


Okay so far, but there's a drive for a 100 dT ship in a 20 dT frame, and it's only providing 1G. Note that there's no room for a bridge. No controls on this puppy.
Looking at the drive potential table on Book 2 page 22 a 100-ton non-starship hull using a Maneuver Drive A provides a maximum acceleration of 2G. Putting a Maneuver Drive A in a 200-ton hull drops the acceleration to 1G. Anything larger than 200-tons the Maneuver Drive A doesn't have enough thrust to get to 1G.

The drive potential table appears to indicate that increasing the hull size reduces the maneuver drives ability to accelerate. Based on the table I'm guessing that decreasing the hull size allows the same maneuver to increase the acceleration with less volume/mass to move.

My understanding is that Book 2 1981 small craft do not require a bridge, but have two couches or one couch in the case of a fighter installed. The couches, at least in my mind, functions like an aircraft cockpit.

Quote:
Now let's look at the Pinnace the same way:
ComponentCostMass
Hull w/ streamliningMCr4.4-
Power PlantMCr8.04
Maneuver DriveMCr41
Control Couches x2MCr0.051
Hard pointMCr0.1-
Fuel-2
Configurable-22.4
TotalMCr16.5530.4
ActualMCr2040
Bridge?3.45?9.6?


The Pinnace is actually performing like it has a PP-A/MD-A, but to get the cost and tonnage, it needs a bridge - a bridge of an odd size and price.

Now the Cutter:
ComponentCostMass
Hull w/ streamliningMCr5.5-
Power PlantMCr8.04
Maneuver DriveMCr41
Control Couches x2MCr0.051
Hard pointMCr0.1-
Fuel-2
Configurable-32.5
TotalMCr17.6540.5
ActualMCr2850
Bridge?10.35?9.5?


The Cutter likewise is performing like it has a PP-A/MD-A, but to get the cost and tonnage, it too needs an odd bridge, or maybe there's costs involved in the modular business. However, note that the space for the Cutter bridge is smaller than that for the Pinnace.

Let's try the Ship's Boat:
ComponentCostMass
Hull w/ streamliningMCr3.3-
Power PlantMCr8.04
Maneuver DriveMCr41
Control Couches x2MCr0.051
Hard pointMCr0.1-
Fuel-1.8
Configurable-13.7
TotalMCr15.4521.5
ActualMCr1630
Bridge?0.55?8.5?


See? The Ship's Boat too performs like it has an A/A, and like the Pinnace and Cutter it has extra space that might be a bridge, but there's little money for a bridge. And, there's no rhyme or reason to the extra space between the three, and no extra space on the Launch for whatever it is those three others are carrying. Nothing's adding up right.
As I mentioned for the launch I'm guessing that the Maneuver Drive A in hulls less than 100-tons can achieve 6Gs of accelerations since it is pushing less volume/mass. The rules from small craft require acceleration couches, aka small craft passenger couches, which at a guess has the controls built into them.

Of course, I haven't tried duplicating any of them yet, besides I haven't succeeded at exactly matching any published design so far.

Again thank you for your help.
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Old August 3rd, 2014, 04:43 PM
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Morning Carlobrand,

After reviewing my post to you I've discovered that I shouldn't be composing replies at 12:30 AM PDT.

First, I like the work you did in formatting the tables for the Book 2 small craft designs.

The launch is the only one I have recreated this time around with the tons matching. My cost with a bit of rounding matches the MCr described on Book 2 pages 18 and 23.

My cost for just the hull, maneuver drive, power plant, fuel tankage, and two small craft couches is MCr14.05.

Apparently, the small craft designs do not require the inclusion of the architect's fee (Book 2 page 12), the 10% reduction in cost for being a standard design (Book 2 page 12), or the Cr100 (Book 2 page 17) cost for purchasing the standard design plans.

One of the comments is that none of the small craft have a bridge which is not required since in the Small craft section on Book 2 page 17 uses one or two small craft couches to control craft. My vision is something along the lines of cockpits similar to what is used in aircraft today. I'm thinking that a Traveller's fighter cockpit would look familiar to one in any fighter we know today. Non-fighter's might have a similar setup to fighters or more likely to any cockpit on other aircraft we know today.

For anyone wanting to include a bridge I recommended changing the 20 ton minimum to 2 tons leaving the formula at 2% x hull size. the Cost formula I'm leaning towards keeping as MCr0.5 per 100 tons of hull. As an alternative I might change the formula to MCr0.5 per 10 tons of hull since small craft are about one-tenth the size of starship/non-starship hulls.

The standard maneuver drives and power plants are designed to accelerate and run hulls >=100-tons. Looking at the tables on Book 2 page 22 as the hull varies the maneuver drive's rating changes a M-Drive A on a 200 ton hull allows an acceleration of 1G while the same M-Drive in an 100-ton hull increases the acceleration to a maximum of 2Gs. My guess and keeping things simple, is that placing the standard maneuver drives into a small craft hull, provided they fit the hull, allows any one of them to a accelerate to 6Gs.

Of course, I have almost never been able to recreate a published design exactly using any of the design sequences. Most of the time my tons work out. Cost usually doesn't match, but since I now know not to include the architects fee for the discount cost that may change. EP is about 50/50 and calculating crew is getting better.

Unfortunately I haven't gotten around to any of the others to see if my numbers match the ones in Post 3.
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Old August 3rd, 2014, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
Apparently, the small craft designs do not require the inclusion of the architect's fee (Book 2 page 12), the 10% reduction in cost for being a standard design (Book 2 page 12), or the Cr100 (Book 2 page 17) cost for purchasing the standard design plans.
NO DESIGN SHOULD INCLUDE THE ARCHITECT'S FEES!

You've consistently made that error... and it's part of why you never match published!
  • The buyer pays for the plans FIRST. If it's a standard plan, the plans may be on file and are only Cr100. If not, it's 1% or 1.5% depending upon completion time. §
  • Then seeks financing, but the financing is only on the ship's cost EXCLUDING the cost of the plans.
  • If financing is secured, they pay 20% of the cost (again, excluding the plans) as down payment.
  • Then, after construction finishes, they pay their 1/240th of the financed cost (again excluding architecht's fees), every month for 40 years.

§ If doing new "standard designs" for your OTU games, such as a regional variant, the plans will likewise be Cr100 for the reference fees. If doing custom, or building something that may be standard elsewhere but isn't locally common, it's the 1% (4 weeks) or 1.5% (1 week) of cash price.

Note that the term "Cash Price" is used in the rules for financing, versus "Final Price" in construction, but the final price can be reduced for simultaneous construction.
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Old August 3rd, 2014, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
... The launch is the only one I have recreated this time around with the tons matching. My cost with a bit of rounding matches the MCr described on Book 2 pages 18 and 23.

My cost for just the hull, maneuver drive, power plant, fuel tankage, and two small craft couches is MCr14.05. ...
So you're not charging for streamlining or hardpoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
... Apparently, the small craft designs do not require the inclusion of the architect's fee (Book 2 page 12), the 10% reduction in cost for being a standard design (Book 2 page 12), or the Cr100 (Book 2 page 17) cost for purchasing the standard design plans. ...
CT Book 2, page 17: "Vessels under 100 tons are considered to be small craft. There are eight standard designs available; each design plan is available for Cr100. All take approximately twelve months to build. All are streamlined, and can enter atmospheres."

As with the architect fee, the Cr100 design plan fee is not included in the cost of the ship, or in this case small craft. You're dealing with two separate companies. You buy the plans from the "small design corporation" (CT Book 2, page 12, "Naval Architecture"), you take them over to the shipyard, you say, "I want [state number here] of this design." The shipyard will then demand payment: "A shipyard will insist upon a 20% down payment with the order for the vessel, as well as requiring a demonstration that proper financing is available to cover the balance when due," (CT Book 2, page 12, "Costs and Payments") but at that point you've already bought and paid for your design plans. Ergo, at the point where you're paying the "small design corporation" for your Cr100 standard design plan (or for your 1%-of-cost nonstandard design plans, for ships), you're paying out of pocket, before the mortgage (and therefore the per-unit cost of the ship/craft) is established.

Since the only folk who are requesting original designs are likely to be governments or corporations who can easily afford the up-front price, that's not a problem.

Whether or not they benefit from the 10% standard design discount has not been established. We know how much the small craft cost; the book states it. We know how much the standard design ships cost; the book states it. We know the standard design ship costs include the discount, because when we put together a standard design ship using the ship design rules, we can see there's a 10% difference between the cost we get for the components and what the book cost is. However, we do not have CT Book-2 small craft design rules; we can only speculate that IF we apply the ship design rules to the design of small craft, and our assumptions for that process are correct, then this specific small craft does not appear to benefit from a discount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
... One of the comments is that none of the small craft have a bridge which is not required since in the Small craft section on Book 2 page 17 uses one or two small craft couches to control craft. ...
Unwarranted assumption. There is no Book-2 design sequence for small craft. Ergo, there is no rule specifying whether you do or don't need a bridge. What we know is:

1. The launch appears to have no room for a bridge if we assume that it is indeed using Maneuver A and Power Plant A, but it seems to function despite the apparent lack.
2. Everything larger than the launch has a large quantity of unidentified space.

We are left with two possible options: either the launch is NOT using Maneuver A / Power Plant A but is using something much smaller and is using the remaining tonnage for a bridge, or the launch IS using Maneuver A / Power Plant A but is limited in performance to 1G because it lacks a bridge, while the larger craft are using that mystery space for a bridge and therefore are able to use their drives' full capabilities.

A further point is that both slow boat and slow pinnace appear to be using drives smaller than the A/A to allow them to carry more cargo with lower performance. The slow boat cuts performance in half and gets 6.2 dTons in the deal: 0.8 out of the reduced size fuel tank and 5.4 out of the reduced drive (which is very odd since the A/A is only 5 dTons). The slow pinnace cuts performance from 5G to 2G and gets 9.2 dTons in the deal: 1 out of the reduced size fuel tank and 8.2 out of the reduced drive (which is very, very odd). Ergo it appears to be possible to have something smaller than an A/A - and something in that process is also drawing space out of our mysterious unclaimed volume. (In other words, the bridge size here does seem to depend on the size of the drives.)

An interesting side point is that the small craft are limited in the weapons they mount: a launch (with an added computer) may not use lasers, a ship's boat may use one, a pinnace or cutter may mount up to 2. Neither the scout/courier nor the free trader are limited in what they mount, creating the possibility of a 6-laser free trader, despite the fact that we've agreed the cutter and pinnace plant/drive looks very much like the scout and trader's A's. One would expect, at the very least, that if they were all using the same drives then the launch and ship's boat would be able to use as many lasers as a pinnace or cutter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
... For anyone wanting to include a bridge I recommended changing the 20 ton minimum to 2 tons leaving the formula at 2% x hull size. the Cost formula I'm leaning towards keeping as MCr0.5 per 100 tons of hull. As an alternative I might change the formula to MCr0.5 per 10 tons of hull since small craft are about one-tenth the size of starship/non-starship hulls. ...
The ship's boat, pinnace and cutter have, respectively, 28.3%, 24%, and 19% of their volume mysteriously unaccounted for. 2% or 2 tons does not adequately identify the missing volume. My best guess is a bridge whose volume depends on the craft's performance, since that seems to be then only way to explain the slow boat and slow pinnace.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 01:50 AM
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Evening aramis and Carlobrand,

Thank you both for your replies and my apologies for not using quotes.

I am having a problem using the quote feature at the bottom of the posts and the one at the top of the window, so I am going to try replying to both or your posts without doing them.

Aramis, I have never exactly matched the cost of the published designs with or without the architect's fee. However, the Consolidated CT Errata does include the architect's fee for the first designed ship and the listed cost of all other hulls receives the discount.

I have gotten closer to matching the single unit cost and quantity cost lately, however I'm still not getting them match.

The rules for financing the hull doesn't at least to me appear to match the
Starship Design Checklist as follows:

Step 13. Architect's fee (1% of total cost) I understand is adding up the costs of Steps 1 through 12 and multiplying by 1% to get the fee.

Step 14. Note total price and construction time. My understanding of total price is adding up the costs of Steps 1 through 13.

Carlobrand Book 2 page 18 states that the launch costs MCr14 adding up the cost including streamlining and hard point results in a cost of MCr14.35 without including them the cost is MCr14.05. To me MCr14.05 is closer to MCr14.35 however, rounding to the nearest MCr1 will make either one MCr14.

Small craft are non-starships and non-starships use the Starship design system but drops the jump drive and jump drive fuel requirements. Unfortunately Book 2 does not, as you mention, clearly state to use the Starship Design Checklist or provides a separate one like Book 5.

That being said the checklist for starships and non-starships >= 100 tons require a bridge based on 2% of the hull or a minimum of 20 tons.

Small craft rules states that one or two small craft couches (0.5 tons and Cr25,000) are installed are for a pilot and rider. My conclusion is that the couches contain the controls to operate the small craft. Comparing Book 2 with Book 5 small craft that do not have a bridge requires the installation of a computer and at least one pilot couch (0.5 tons and Cr25,000). Comparing the two couch requirements to me reinforces my belief that the Book 2 couches contain the controls and that small craft do not need a bridge. Of course Book 5 also requires a computer which Book 2 doesn't.

Book 2 page 17 I believe explains the large quantity of unaccounted space mentioned twice in Post #8 and I think 13 tons or 65% of space on a 20 ton hull qualifies as a large quantity of space:

"Each craft also has a feature called excess space: this interior tonnage may be used by the purchaser for some specific use."

"For example, the launch, with 13 tons excess space, could utilize the space for 5 tons of fuel, 10 passenger couches, a small craft cabin, and one ton of cargo; or the vessel could have all 13 tons allocated to cargo."

The Ship's Boat per Book 2 1981 has 13.7 tons of excess space which could be equipped with 27 small craft couches leaving 2 tons for cargo.

All the unaccounted space allows the standard hull to be customized at no additional cost.

Right now I have only worked on the launch which appears to be using a maneuver drive from the standard drives and power plant table to be 1 ton and cost MCr4. The power plant appears to be 4 tons and cost MCr8. They both are designated on the table with the letter A.

I'll have to get back to you on the other items concerning the other designs when I've worked them out.

I'm going to close since I have to finis some domestic chores before I go to bed.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 12:32 PM
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Morning all,

1. Early this morning, at least for Book 5 High Guard, I remembered to check Supplement 12 and Adventure 5 TCS since Aramis and Carlobrand among others indicate that the I am incorrect including the architect's fee and discount in the total cost for a ship design.

Supplement 12 pages 23 through 25 have the Book 5 Starship Design Checklist and ship design worksheet while pages 26 and 27 provides the Small Craft Design Sheet and checklist.

Starship Design Checklist Supplement 12 page 23

Step 14. Total the cost of components.
A. Determine architect's fees.
B. Determine volume discounts, if any.
C. Determine the total cost for the ship.

Ship Design Worksheet IN Form 10 Reverse

Step 14 Totals
Hull
Drives
Controls
Weapons
Screens
Facilities
Quarters
Cargo
Subtotals
Architect's Fees
Discounts
Total

The Small Craft Design Sheet IN Form 11 Supplement 12 page 26 adds the components together and lists them as subtotals. The architect's fee and discounts are added which results in the total for the ship.

The Small Craft Design Checklist on Supplement 12 page 27 Step 14 is the same as Step 14 of the Starship Design Checklist.

I may be wrong but the material in Supplement 12 is supposedly the updated requirements for Book 5 which shows that both the architect's fee and volume discount are part of a design's total cost.

Adventure 5 TCS pages 24 through 27 provide design checklists and worksheets for starships and small craft. The checklists are not as clear as the ones in Supplement 12. However, here are the checklist Steps.

Starship Design Checklist:
Step 18. Total the cost of components and determine architect's fees.
Step 19. Determine volume discounts, if any.
Step 20. Determine the total cost for the ship.

Small Craft Design Checklist:
Step 16. Total the cost of components and determine architect's fees.
Step 17. Determine volume discounts, if any.
Step 18. Determine the total cost for the ship.

The Ship Design Worksheet and Small Craft Worksheet both have two rows labeled Total. The first Total comes at the end of the components and the second Total follows entries for Architect and Discounts.

Which is the correct procedure to use the one in Supplement 12 or in Book 5 for High Guard designs?

If Supplement 12 is not the correct procedure does that mean that Adventure 5's procedure is not correct and they both need to be edited to conform to Book 5?

2. The Book 2, unfortunately, Starship Design Checklist doesn't appear to have been deemed worthy of updating like Book 5. I will also admit that I abandoned Book 2's design checklist for Book 5 and recently have gone back with the intention to figure out how to build a standard starship and non-starship design.

Of course one of the issues I have is that I still have my original LBB set of Traveller from 1977 which where used until I picked up the 1981 versions. The LBB 2 1977 version did appear to have been used to design the small craft. Book 2 1977 calls the 20-ton small craft a life boat, which in 1981 was re-designated as Launch (also called Lifeboat).

To get the life boat's or launch's base cost of MCr14 using Book 2 1977 I worked out as to be Hull Cost MCr2 + M-Drive A MCr 4 + PP A MCr8 = MCr6 + MCr8 = MCr14. Unfortunately, my success did not spill over to the other small craft or standard starship designs.

Looks like I won't try submitting any designs with the expectation of getting them published for use in CT, MT, TNE, and T4 since I apparently can't the published designs to match using the respective design procedures. I guess I'll have the same issues in T5, whenever I get around to purchasing the rules.

Thank you for trying to get me straightened out, even though I appear to be a hopeless case.
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