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2300AD & 2320 Discussion of the original 2300AD from GDW, the revised 2300 from Mongoose Publishing, or QLI's 2320AD.

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  #1  
Old July 16th, 2008, 08:28 PM
rfmcdpei rfmcdpei is offline
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Default Colonies versus enclaves

23xx literature makes a distinction between colonies and enclaves. Colonies, as I understand them, are fully-fledged offshoot societies or even independent societies that are producing a net profit for their colonizers, helping them avoid the economic slumps that are visiting much of Europe by 2320. Enclaves are significantly smaller entities, created by non-starfaring nations as mechanisms for them to break into the considerably larger markets of the colonies (and independent states) created by the starfarers in Tiers 1 through 3.

I suspect that there's a middle ground between fully-fledged colonies and fully-fledged enclaves. Manchuria's Tunghu on Tirane looks an awful lot like an overgrown enclave to me, while New Austin on Komoran probably wouldn't consider independence if it didn't think that it could be viable. Many of the enclaves on the older colony worlds, particularly Tirane but also Nibelungen and Beowulf, might also be quite near-colonies in their own right. I can imagine that Freihafen's Austrovenian partner enclave, Nowa Slovenija, might be booming, say aas a tax shelter and/or a tourist or educational destination that's not quite up to the level of Tunghu but is trying hard and is incidentally providing a lot of tax money to the Austrovenian federal government back on Terra.

From the point of view of the adventurer, there might not be many visible differences, say that Czech (or Czechoslovak?) might be a more useful language in Freihafen than Magyar, or that Austrovenia and Czechoslovakia might doing significantly better than Croatia and Hungary. One fairly strong possibility is that these and other Tier 4 countries might be particularly interested in setting up and expanding their new or established enclaves to near- or full colony status as quickly as possible, drawing upon troubleshooters or settlers or military types to do so. The French Arm is probably the most likely destination of these starfarers, given the homogeneity of the American Arm, the distance of the Chinese Arm, the need of the French Arm to rebuild and the close links of these European Tier 4 states with the French Arm's colonizers, but the direction of this flow brings obvious risks with it.

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old July 17th, 2008, 01:28 AM
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The historical use of the term is somewhat different than you postulate for 2300 use...

A colony is set up as a body of one's own citizenry to support themselves and hopefully turn a profit for the mother country.

An enclave is a body of one's citizenry that is economically dependent upon a larger body of some other nation's citizenry. Like Hong Kong, for example.

So that middle ground is because you are ascribing a stronger size correlation than I suspect is relevant.

Each Enclave is economically tied to some other colony on world, at least as much as tied to the offworld interests.
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Old July 18th, 2008, 12:22 AM
Peter Schutze Peter Schutze is offline
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>Each Enclave is economically tied to some other colony on world, at least as much as tied to the offworld interests.

While I agree with you it does raise one issue:-

by that definition I guess the 2300 inca colonies were all more properly called enclaves of texans
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Old July 18th, 2008, 02:26 AM
Waldemar Waldemar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Schutze View Post
>Each Enclave is economically tied to some other colony on world, at least as much as tied to the offworld interests.

While I agree with you it does raise one issue:-

by that definition I guess the 2300 inca colonies were all more properly called enclaves of texans
Actually, I was a bit surprised in reading 2320 AD to see how many of the Tier 3 nations that were very much dependent on other starfaring nations to found and support their colonies. Both Canton and the Inca Republic were barely ranked as Tier 3 nations. If it wasn't because of their colonies they would perhaps even be ranked at the lower end of Tier 4. I think that the Austrovenian, Greek, Italian etc enclaves on Tirane might be much more important settlements economically and politically than the showcase "colonies" of some Tier 3 nations.

Last edited by Waldemar; August 7th, 2008 at 11:14 AM.. Reason: spelling and English grammar
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Old July 18th, 2008, 06:36 PM
BMonnery BMonnery is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfmcdpei View Post
23xx literature makes a distinction between colonies and enclaves. Colonies, as I understand them, are fully-fledged offshoot societies or even independent societies that are producing a net profit for their colonizers, helping them avoid the economic slumps that are visiting much of Europe by 2320. Enclaves are significantly smaller entities, created by non-starfaring nations as mechanisms for them to break into the considerably larger markets of the colonies (and independent states) created by the starfarers in Tiers 1 through 3.
In GDW 2300AD, an Enclave is an Outpost on an alien occupied planet, 2 on Stark and two on Kormoran. The population of New Austin is 3,700, while Nasser is about 5,000. New Austin is dependent on UAR major facilities, notably the spaceport and terminal.

The two on Stark are unknowns but will likely run to a few thousand.

As for colonies, the smallest colony in GDW 2300AD is the Canadian Colony of Doris, standing at 2,000 people, few of them permanent settlers, meanwhile Optimiste, a French Outpost, has 10,000. The difference may be largely ephemeral, and based upon having a permanent population.

The idea of satellite colonies is in keeping with colonial development as described in Beanstalk and the Aurore SB, but there's no reason to hand over effectively entire provinces. While foreign nationals may be accepted onto a nations colonial programme, they're unlikely to be claiming territory for their birthplace.
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Old July 26th, 2008, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
An enclave is a body of one's citizenry that is economically dependent upon a larger body of some other nation's citizenry. Like Hong Kong, for example.

So that middle ground is because you are ascribing a stronger size correlation than I suspect is relevant.

Each Enclave is economically tied to some other colony on world, at least as much as tied to the offworld interests.
The problem is that there are full-fledged colonies that are defined as dependents of other, larger colonies. The Incan colonies' dependence on their Texan counterparts on Heidelsheimat and Austin's World comes to mind, as does the relationship of New Cornwall and Lubumbashi on Joi, as does (possibly) the Life Foundation to Texas on Austin's World. For that matter, the perplexing description of the United States' Tirania as a "failing" colony might suggest that it, too, is under the strong influence of one or another of the Tiranean societies.

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Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
Actually, I was a bit surprised in reading 2320 AD to see how many of the Tier 3 nations that where very much dependent on other starfaring nations to found and support their colonies. Both Canton and the Inca Republic were ranked Tier 3 nations, and perhaps even be ranked at the lower end of Tier 4, if it wasn't because of their colonies. I think that the Austrovenian, Greek, Italian etc enclaves on Tirane might be much more important settlements economically and politically than showcase "colonies" of some Tier 3 nations.
I'd think that to be true for enclaves on Tirane. For the Tirane Sourcebook, Benjamin Levy came up with Nova Ostia, a Greek enclave in Provncia do Brasil that was on the verge of becoming a fully-fledged colony thanks to Brazil's history of encouraging Tier 4 countries to move up to Tier 3.

I suspect that's true for Nibelungen, if only because it's not so far away by stutterwarp and it's the third human world by population. That might be the furthest point at which a Tier 4 country can effectively control an enclave.

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Originally Posted by BMonnery View Post
The idea of satellite colonies is in keeping with colonial development as described in Beanstalk and the Aurore SB, but there's no reason to hand over effectively entire provinces. While foreign nationals may be accepted onto a nations colonial programme, they're unlikely to be claiming territory for their birthplace.
The Tier 1-3 powers have the territory and the technology and the people and the wealth, but it might not have all of the latter two that it might want. Tier 4 countries could strike a deal here, perhaps something on the model of Hong Kong: "We'll let you control and invest in and help populate this province-sized chunk of our continent for ninety-nine years, and you'd do well to also invest in and help populate the rest of our continent over the same length of time. In return, after the ninety-nine year is up and the provicne reverts to our sovereignty, we'll protect your interests with this and that and the other provision."

Last edited by rfmcdpei; July 26th, 2008 at 03:32 AM.. Reason: typos
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Old July 28th, 2008, 07:29 PM
BMonnery BMonnery is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfmcdpei View Post
The problem is that there are full-fledged colonies that are defined as dependents of other, larger colonies. The Incan colonies' dependence on their Texan counterparts on Heidelsheimat and Austin's World comes to mind, as does the relationship of New Cornwall and Lubumbashi on Joi, as does (possibly) the Life Foundation to Texas on Austin's World. For that matter, the perplexing description of the United States' Tirania as a "failing" colony might suggest that it, too, is under the strong influence of one or another of the Tiranean societies.
Of course, the Texans themselves seem to be ultimately reliable on Manchuria for off-world transport. There is an absolute gulf between Texas and, say, Germany in terms of capability. Indeed, the Tier idea is from Earth:2300 (http://home.earthlink.net/~ad2300/earth23.htm ), and there are only three tier. France, the 18 Starfarers, and everyone else.

Who the 18 starfarers is is questionable. They obviously include America, Argentina, Australia, Azania, Britain, Canada (marginally) Canton, Germany, Indonesia, Manchuria, Mexico, Russia, maybe Texas, and probably the Ukraine. There are other nations with starships, but who aren't necessarily starfarers, such as Incans, Central Asian, Nigerians and UAR.

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I'd think that to be true for enclaves on Tirane. For the Tirane Sourcebook, Benjamin Levy came up with Nova Ostia, a Greek enclave in Provncia do Brasil that was on the verge of becoming a fully-fledged colony thanks to Brazil's history of encouraging Tier 4 countries to move up to Tier 3.
What a nation barely agriculturally self-sufficient and without major industries has to barter I don't know. Not that Greece couldn't necessarily be a pseudo-dependency of Brazil. However, given the relatively small numbers of people being moved, Brazil isn't exactly in need of people.

Quote:
The Tier 1-3 powers have the territory and the technology and the people and the wealth, but it might not have all of the latter two that it might want. Tier 4 countries could strike a deal here, perhaps something on the model of Hong Kong: "We'll let you control and invest in and help populate this province-sized chunk of our continent for ninety-nine years, and you'd do well to also invest in and help populate the rest of our continent over the same length of time. In return, after the ninety-nine year is up and the provicne reverts to our sovereignty, we'll protect your interests with this and that and the other provision."
HK was the result of a trade war (although not over Opium, that's a 1930's Japanese propaganda story used to justify their actions in Manchuria). The British forcibly opened a trading post there. It's 2300 equivalent would be a victorious nation putting their own starport in an important colony and trading directly with the colony.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 03:44 AM
rfmcdpei rfmcdpei is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMonnery View Post
Of course, the Texans themselves seem to be ultimately reliable on Manchuria for off-world transport. There is an absolute gulf between Texas and, say, Germany in terms of capability. Indeed, the Tier idea is from Earth:2300 (http://home.earthlink.net/~ad2300/earth23.htm ), and there are only three tier. France, the 18 Starfarers, and everyone else.

Who the 18 starfarers is is questionable. They obviously include America, Argentina, Australia, Azania, Britain, Canada (marginally) Canton, Germany, Indonesia, Manchuria, Mexico, Russia, maybe Texas, and probably the Ukraine. There are other nations with starships, but who aren't necessarily starfarers, such as Incans, Central Asian, Nigerians and UAR.
I think that you've named them all. I think, although I wonder about Freihafen. Was it just a matter of the country gearing up?

(The Incan Republic, incidentally, is the kind of starfaring power that horrifies me. The Austin's World colony is a mess, but the Heidelsheimat one, gack.)

It's interesting The only Terran country to join the ranks of the Tier 2 and 3 powers by 2320 Tier The Scandinavian Union is desribed in [I]Bayern/I] as having at least one interstellar freighter, while I don't remember how the UAR found Komoran.

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What a nation barely agriculturally self-sufficient and without major industries has to barter I don't know. Not that Greece couldn't necessarily be a pseudo-dependency of Brazil. However, given the relatively small numbers of people being moved, Brazil isn't exactly in need of people.
It might just be an attempt by Brazil to expand its influences. With most of the rest of Latin America being beyond the pale by virture of beign Spanish by language, links with Japan long since passed, Africa (apart from Lusophone Angola) existing in French, Nigerian, and Azanian spheres of influence, and few European nations sharing the strength of Brazilian Catholicism, cultivating Greece might not be a bad idea. Italy, too.

Quote:
HK was the result of a trade war (although not over Opium, that's a 1930's Japanese propaganda story used to justify their actions in Manchuria). The British forcibly opened a trading post there. It's 2300 equivalent would be a victorious nation putting their own starport in an important colony and trading directly with the colony.
It's the closest example we have. I don't think that there is a historical parallel for colonizing nations to let junior partners set up their own sovereign enclaves. Presumably the number of enclaves on Tirane is proportional to the strength of the colonizer. With Garten and all of Nibelungen, I can only imagine the number of enclaves there.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 08:12 PM
BMonnery BMonnery is offline
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Originally Posted by rfmcdpei View Post
I think that you've named them all. I think, although I wonder about Freihafen. Was it just a matter of the country gearing up?
Well, not an Earth nation. Of course, the writeup puts the only German/Bavarian shipyard outsystem at Nibelungen ISTR.

Quote:
(The Incan Republic, incidentally, is the kind of starfaring power that horrifies me. The Austin's World colony is a mess, but the Heidelsheimat one, gack.)
If we're counting starfarers, I'd happily relegate the Incans. They're not really starfaring, they just inherited some ships and facilities.

Quote:
It's interesting The only Terran country to join the ranks of the Tier 2 and 3 powers by 2320 Tier The Scandinavian Union is desribed in [I]Bayern/I] as having at least one interstellar freighter, while I don't remember how the UAR found Komoran.
It's just described as a "transport", and given the overall quality of that writeup....

However, IMHO the SU could be a nacant starfarer on the scale of Canada, Texas or Russia. Their economic stats (in ECS) are much healthier than most. In the past I've tried to resist minor nations being talked up (in at least one case I've seen a barely functional nation talked up to be a major player).

In fact I'd be willing to substitute Incans, CAR and Nigerians for SU, Poland and maybe Italy (although there's little evidence of Italian starfaring).

The history from Ranger says:

"The UAR was only one of many latecomers to the stars, and it had little hope of breaking
the virtual lock that a few major powers held on interstellar commerce. With limited resources
to devote to interstellar expansion, UAR leaders knew they could ill afford an unsuccessful colonial
effort. While larger powers attempted colonies in unfavorable locations, the UAR spent
years conducting painstaking studies to discover a site that ensured the greatest probability of
success. The year 2249 was a bitter one for the UAR: Arabia, their traditional rival, with a 10-yearold
colony on Daikoku, hit pay dirt when they discovered alien ruins near that site. With this
discovery, Arabia suddenly found its colony becoming a center of interest, and the funds that
flowed into it as a result helped to ensure the colony's viability.
The UAR, stiff-necked and prideful, had always hidden its bitterness at Arabia's colony behind
the disdainful argument that its colony had only been possible because of early Japanese sponsorship.
But this facade crumbled when it appeared that Arabia had suddenly been propelled
into the limelight via the 23rd century's almost faddish interest in alien cultures, living or dead.
By 2251, however, interest in the ruins on Daikoku began to wane, much to the UAR's relief.
When the following year saw a Texan discovery of similar ruins on Heidelsheimat completely
eclipse the Daikoku findings, the UAR realized that the lead the Arabians had on them was not
unrecoverable. Two ruined settlements from one race meant that more were likely, and the UAR
was determined that it should find such evidence of the aliens that fame could not desert it as
it had the Arabian finds. Plans for planting a colony were laid aside, and the entire UAR space
effort was bent toward discovering the homeworld of the aliens. In 2256 that gamble paid off.
UAR contact teams discovered more than they could have hoped for when they found the alien
homeworld and discovered that the race still lived among the ruined buildings of their millenniaold
cities!
Having worked hard to gain this advantageous position, the UAR moved quickly to preserve
its dominance on Kormoran. Two factors were crucial to consolidating UAR control, and the
UAR used them both shrewdly. The first factor was a Manchurian resolve to prevent a recurrence
of events similar to the Slaver War. The Manchurians felt that in that situation, what should
have been an opportunity for them to develop a well run contact program with the Sung, turned
into a circus of international interference based upon uninformed Terran public opinion. Trade
with the ascendant Akcheektoon nation should have been quite profitable, but Manchuria's hand
was forced by public opinion, leaving her with no alternative but to effectively destroy that most
stable and effective of Sung governments.
Thereafter, Manchuria sought ascendancy over her Arm, hoping to keep the attention of other
major Terran nations out of what it increasingly regarded as its internal affairs. The UAR pointed
out that if access to the Ebers were restricted, this kind of attention could be avoided. However,
the Melbourne Accords were clear on the equal access issue, and Texas took advantage of them
to establish an enclave on Kormoran, thereby becoming the only nation with settlers on two
"Eber" worlds.
It was the resurgence of Provolution on the Chinese Arm that gave the UAR a powerful case
for shutting off further access to Kormoran. The fear of letting the violent terrorists gain a foothold
on the Eber world led Manchuria to agree to a moratorium against further human access to
82 Eridani. Having thus gained for themselves a virtual preserve, the UAR had only to prevent
the Texans from achieving anything more than a backwater desert settlement."


Quote:
It's the closest example we have. I don't think that there is a historical parallel for colonizing nations to let junior partners set up their own sovereign enclaves. Presumably the number of enclaves on Tirane is proportional to the strength of the colonizer. With Garten and all of Nibelungen, I can only imagine the number of enclaves there.
Not necessarily any. The number are due to a major mistake in the compounding (no one dies) and only require Bavaria to find a few tens of thousands with the error.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 02:14 AM
Peter Schutze Peter Schutze is offline
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>I don't think that there is a historical parallel for colonizing nations to let junior partners set up their own sovereign enclaves.

Depends on how sovereign .... the original syulhamn writeup didnt make it sound like the enclaves there were really 100% independent of Manchuria

I like to think of it more like early America .... the "pennsylvania dutch", german and scandanavian heavy areas etc .... all british (and then USA) in soveriegnty but its not that much of a stretch to think of them as sub-nations (enclaves) within the USA's 13 colonies

Or maybe Quebec without the 'plains of Abraham' battle to absorb it into Canada by force of arms
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