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  #751  
Old September 20th, 2013, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown View Post
That's right, we did discuss it. I just don't see why. In a world of instantaneous communications, it makes sense to have a universal time. The only reason to do it elsewhere would be that wonderful Vilani excuse: "That's the way we've always done it!"
We disagree here, then. I think if they have the capability to do it (from timing pulsars or something) then many would, as a common frame of reference would be very useful in many situations.

Not everyone would follow it, of course. Some would pick their own shiptime just to be contrary, while as I noted folks living on planets w day/night cycles would most likely try to fit their own clock to that cycle - but they'd still keep track of that universal reference to have a common reference w others when needed.

Note that GMT and agreed upon calendar conventions pre-date instantaneous communications here on Earth by quite a ways.
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  #752  
Old September 20th, 2013, 12:49 PM
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I am with Badger on this one. Particularly in space travel, as currently in aviation and military operations, there would be a need for a universal time. Keeping a ship on another time would be fine, but having a universal reference minimizes confusion. We have one world with more than 24 time zones; putting everything in GMT ("Zulu" in the military) minimizes confusion; imagine if the OPORD straddles several systems, some with more than one world involved.

If the starport is giving me a time, I don't have to wonder what time zone its in. I think having a universal time is also consistent with the standardization that the Imperium brought about. How much that would apply outside the edge of authority is another question. That temporal standardization is a net positive, however, seems like a no-brainer to me.
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  #753  
Old September 20th, 2013, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SpaceBadger View Post
as a common frame of reference would be very useful in many situations.
Like what? Besides astronomical observations (which would have their own "common frame" - that of when the event occurred), why do you need to know when something happened parsecs away in terms of hours/minutes/seconds? Maybe some scientists doing quantum observations?

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Particularly in space travel, as currently in aviation and military operations, there would be a need for a universal time.
OK, explain that to me. The reason you find it necessary is because you need to coordinate things that will happen simultaneously. An airport needs to know what time an airplane will land - so it's important that the place from which it launches uses the same time reference as the destination. If you're going to take a week to get there, and it will take them a week to even know that you left - this becomes thoroughly irrelevant.

Military operations use a universal time so they can coordinate simultaneous operations from different locations. How are you going to do that in Traveller? When it will take you a week to get the message to the other component in your plan. Will it really make a difference if you launch your effort at precisely 12:37 interstellar time, vice 12:39? Then factor in the +-10% rule. (And Traveller doesn't allow you to do simultaneous jump unless you are within pretty close distance, interstellarly speaking.)

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Originally Posted by samuelvss View Post
If the starport is giving me a time, I don't have to wonder what time zone its in.
If the starport is giving you a time, it doesn't matter what "time zone" it is in - that is its time. If you don't know the current time, they will give you a reference time. That's all that's necessary.
"Your docking time is 14:40, current time is 12:16."

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Originally Posted by samuelvss View Post
We have one world with more than 24 time zones; putting everything in GMT ("Zulu" in the military) minimizes confusion; imagine if the OPORD straddles several systems, some with more than one world involved.
Remember that there was no such thing as a "universal" time until the advent of instantaneous communication. Until then, "universal time" was as far as you could communicate quickly - usually line of sight. Universal time only makes sense if you can make something happen simultaneously in two far-flung locations. And GMT is simply a reference point - in many operations I was required to use local time, and anyone flying in from outside the area had to coordinate with us.

(BTW, I don't have a problem with a universal time within a system. It's the idea of anyone caring what the precise time is in another system - other than some star-struck lover hoping his love is watching the same supernova as he is - that gets to me.)

Obviously, having said all that, if they do it IYTU, then I deal with it. (Donoma happens to think it's kind of silly, if so. )

OK, since I brought up Donoma, I re-think my position slightly. Navigation would benefit in one way: at such-and-such a time, planetary positions would be so-and-so. However, that could be done from a single reference, then back-tracked to find the current "time" within the model from an observation in your current location. It wouldn't have anything to do with local starports or planets or day/alterday on ships. I would actually treat it more like a stardate - a continuous running number that would not cycle (or not cycle very often - certainly not as often as once a minute or once an hour or once a day or even once a year) so as to avoid confusion.
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  #754  
Old September 20th, 2013, 07:26 PM
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I have stated this as "the way it works here" at least twice already, but maybe third time will be the charm: Universal time is kept by means of pulsar observations, at GMT on Terra, or IST on Vland. Some worlds or ships may operate according to a different schedule for various reasons, but if they want to have meaningful contact outside their own little world or ship, they also keep track of standard time per either Terran GMT or Vland IST (which are relatively easy to translate between).

Good example would be Warinir. They are Vilani supremicists and despise anything of Terran origin. They keep local time according to the rotation of Warinir and time-zones arbitrarily placed around it. They also keep standard time for ships and stations according to Vland IST, as a political decision. But even they will have functions in any timekeeping or scheduling devices to also tell them Terran GMT.

How about a world such as Grumith? They keep local time according to their planetary rotation and division into time zones, but also keep track of both Terran GMT and Vland IST, because they have to be able to deal with both Warinir and the more Terran-oriented worlds such as Woomera.

Ships coordinating things with other ships or ground facilities don't need to be worrying about time zones and local planetary time. They need a standard, and they have one. Well, two actually, but which one to use is a political choice, or a choice of whose time you need to coordinate with most often.
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  #755  
Old September 21st, 2013, 11:23 AM
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Ship Armor Questions:

If I want to make a military or paramilitary ship, it should have some armor, right?

I have the first edition of High Guard, but never used it for ships, only for Navy characters. I have heard that it has a lot of bugs that were fixed in 2nd Edition.

I believe Sabredog mentioned that armor takes up 10% of hull volume per armor factor, so a 400 ton ship w armor 1 would have 40 tons of armor.

What is a reasonable amount of armor? How does armor even work? If I look at my old HG book, is that going to be any help, or just get me muddled w stuff that was later fixed in HG 2nd edition?

I looked at Supp 7 Traders and Gunboats, but neither the Gazelle nor SDB in there even have armor.

What about Mongoose Traveller? I see that its ship designs can include armor - should I look there, or is it too different from CT?
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Last edited by SpaceBadger; September 21st, 2013 at 11:34 AM..
  #756  
Old September 21st, 2013, 12:50 PM
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Default Armored Courier

Trying to design an armored courier, a ship that could carry small amounts of valuable cargo or passengers, and still be armored and armed well enough to defend itself.

I used TTB design rules, plus armor = 10% of tonnage per armor factor

400-ton Armored Courier

J-3 - F - 35 tons
3-G - F - 11 tons
PP 3 - F - 19 tons
Total drives = 65 tons

Bridge - 20 tons
Computer - 5 tons
Fire Control - 4 tons
Total controls = 29 tons

Staterooms - Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, 4 Gunners = 7x4 = 28 tons

Fuel = 120 + 30 = 150 tons

GCarrier = 8 tons

This leaves 120 tons for armor and cargo space

Armor Factor 2 = 80 tons

Cargo = 40 tons

Reasonable? Did I break anything or skip anything?

Clearly this would not be a ship that could make a profit carrying freight or passengers. It would be a special purpose ship for carrying valuable cargo or passengers and protecting them. (Gunners double up on staterooms when passengers are carried.)
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  #757  
Old September 21st, 2013, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBadger View Post
I have stated this as "the way it works here" at least twice already, but maybe third time will be the charm:
Like I said, YTU. No worries from me.

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Originally Posted by SpaceBadger View Post
I used TTB design rules, plus armor = 10% of tonnage per armor factor
Here's the table from High Guard:
TL7-9 - 4%+(4%*a)
TL10-11 - 3%+(3%*a)
TL12-13 - 2%+(2%*a)
Cost is MCr(.3+(.1*a)) per dT
where "a" is the armor factor.

As to its effects:
Criticals are reduced for every two levels of armor.
It's a DM against weapons on the surface explosions and radiation tables (except mesons).
A critical hit reduces your armor by 1.
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  #758  
Old September 21st, 2013, 03:12 PM
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40 dT is not a small amount of goods. I'd suggest that the patrol cruiser with its 6 dT of cargo space would be quite suitable for such a purpose.


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Old September 21st, 2013, 03:14 PM
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Mongoose Traveller startes with the LBB2 ship design system and added armor rules ... it might be worth looking at how they did it.

(sorry, can't look up my PDFs from an IPAD)
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Old September 21st, 2013, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceBadger View Post
Ship Armor Questions:

If I want to make a military or paramilitary ship, it should have some armor, right?

I have the first edition of High Guard, but never used it for ships, only for Navy characters. I have heard that it has a lot of bugs that were fixed in 2nd Edition.

I believe Sabredog mentioned that armor takes up 10% of hull volume per armor factor, so a 400 ton ship w armor 1 would have 40 tons of armor.

What is a reasonable amount of armor? How does armor even work? If I look at my old HG book, is that going to be any help, or just get me muddled w stuff that was later fixed in HG 2nd edition?

I looked at Supp 7 Traders and Gunboats, but neither the Gazelle nor SDB in there even have armor.

What about Mongoose Traveller? I see that its ship designs can include armor - should I look there, or is it too different from CT?
No, it isn't a straight 10% per armor factor. The formula used in HG2, depending on TL, can get high - at TL-10 armor would be as much as 9% of the hull for just 2 points.

Mongoose armor is more straightforward by using just three types of armor based on materials. But it also uses a lot of space.

I recommended using HG2 rules for armor (but it has to be included during construction and cannot be added later - no bolt-on applique).

IMTU I also allow it to be added to specific areas of the ship - the engineering section (excluding fuel tanks), and Bridge (including the computer), to save volume but harden important areas... for Cruisers and Protected Cruisers, for example. Or just harden them more, as in the case of an SDB.

A Gazelle type escort would probably not have any armor, though, IMTU since it is a cheap and plentiful type of warship akin to a corvette in a small ship universe or maybe a PT Boat in a big ship universe. It would rely on speed (agility) and not taking on more than it could chew (not to hard given its duties) to survive.

IMTU armor in the small ship world using LBB2 combat means armor reduces hits on a one to one level. A triple beam laser turret doing three hits to a component against a 2 armor point ship would only do 1 point of damage. Radiation hits are similarly reduced.

A heavy warship of 5kt might have 5 points of armor, plus have its engineering and bridge sections armored to 8 points. A triple pulse laser turret might get through (if sand wasn't fired) and only get one hit in against the lighter armored sections. But a 100-ton PAW bay certainly would, as might HEAP warhead "torpedoes" (bay sized missiles).

In your LBB2 game, armor should work the same since you are using the same "hits = all the weapons in the turret hit the same hit location" rule. I've emailed you the chart with the point values I use for the various weapons and expanded hit locations if they will help.
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