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The Fleet Ship designs, strategies, and tactics.

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  #91  
Old November 27th, 2020, 04:01 AM
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A high passenger can 'bump' (outbid) a mid passenger (LBB2, 2nd ed., p.5).

The displaced mid passenger gets a refund, but has no recourse other than to then buy a high passage to displace a different mid-passenger.

Last edited by Grav_Moped; November 27th, 2020 at 04:13 AM..
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  #92  
Old November 27th, 2020, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Pop A world.
Large lots: 1D+6
Small Lots: 1D+7
Incidental Lots: 1D

I'll analyse with a range - low at 3 per die, high at 4.
So large lots at 1d10
Small Lots at 1d5
Incidental at 1d

Pop A world thus typically has 9x30 to 10x40 tons in large lots of cargo.
That's 270-400 tons
The Small Lots run 10 to 11, so 150 to 220 tons
Incidentals add 9 to 16 tons
So we are looking at 429 to 676 tons cargo.

But, in Bk 7, we also have freight lots in similar numbers.
So we can fill 840 to 1500 tons that way.

The thing is, while one can only roll once per week... there's no actual prohibition on booking freight to multiple destinations. So, you're booking jumps along the route.
The problem is, that's clearly not intended, otherwise a negative modifier would be ipresent for doing so.

Even if the GM allows booking only two jumps ahead, you get another set of freight lots. And you have the space to arrive, used trader 3+ to predict sale a jump ahead...
So you now have about 4000 tons potentially aboard...

As I said, plausible, not practical. It relies upon having sufficient skills to maximize, and a good route. Plus, you max the income by converting some to passengers.

Plausible, but not likely, and involves multiple loads and maxed skill, between multiple high pop worlds
Ok, that's what I missed -- the rolls for cargo and freight are both done on the Cargo Available at Source World table, but they stack (you roll for the cargo available at Cr1000/ton, then roll for the freight valued as per the origin/destination tables and mods).

That makes the average outbound tonnage (excluding passengers) about equal to the maximum tonnage from a single pass through the cargo generation rolls.
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  #93  
Old November 27th, 2020, 08:36 AM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grav_Moped View Post
Ok, that's what I missed -- the rolls for cargo and freight are both done on the Cargo Available at Source World table, but they stack (you roll for the cargo available at Cr1000/ton, then roll for the freight valued as per the origin/destination tables and mods).
I don't think so.

The Cargo table (LBB7, p39) is the same table as LBB2 p11 (with added skill DMs) and refers to freight, not speculative cargo. The Ship Revenues table on the same page states Cargo is carried for kCr1/Dt, so freight.

Note the example LBB7 p41 describes buying trade goods without rolling for available quantity. The checklist (LBB7, p37) does not contain any step to limit the amount of trade goods that can be bought or sold. I can't find anything in the LBB7 rules that limits the amount trade goods that can be bought or sold.
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  #94  
Old November 27th, 2020, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
I don't think so.

The Cargo table (LBB7, p39) is the same table as LBB2 p11 (with added skill DMs) and refers to freight, not speculative cargo. The Ship Revenues table on the same page states Cargo is carried for kCr1/Dt, so freight.

Note the example LBB7 p41 describes buying trade goods without rolling for available quantity. The checklist (LBB7, p37) does not contain any step to limit the amount of trade goods that can be bought or sold. I can't find anything in the LBB7 rules that limits the amount trade goods that can be bought or sold.
That's... odd.

If there's no limit, then there ought to be no limit to cargo either since trade goods can become cargo once someone buys them for shipment offworld. PCs can do it, so the locals should be able to do it as well.

Perhaps the assumption is that the cargo presented by the LBB2 tables consists of all of the trade goods the locals could afford to buy up to ship offworld to sell on their own, and the PCs' speculative purchases are on top of that. Seems a bit difficult to support, especially on higher-pop worlds, but it's all I can come up with.
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  #95  
Old November 27th, 2020, 04:12 PM
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The assumption of the LBB2 trade rules is that the freight available and the speculative goods you can find (only one roll per week remember) are what is available to a tramp trader run by ethically challenged merchants - PCs in other words - after the big boys have taken all the big stuff.

The merchant lines - the ones you generate a character's previous experience from and then leave to begin adventuring or living the life of a free trader - will ship goods using a far different economic model, one that can not be determined from the free trader minigame of LBB2.

Look at the chapter in The Traveller Adventure detailing the major shipping companies, their ships and their routes.
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  #96  
Old November 27th, 2020, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
The assumption of the LBB2 trade rules is that the freight available and the speculative goods you can find (only one roll per week remember) are what is available to a tramp trader run by ethically challenged merchants - PCs in other words - after the big boys have taken all the big stuff.
Yes, they have agents embedded into the business culture of that planet. Long term deals, new deals heard about first on the "golf course", etc., etc. Tramp freighters cannot compete with that at all.
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  #97  
Old November 29th, 2020, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
The assumption of the LBB2 trade rules is that the freight available and the speculative goods you can find (only one roll per week remember) are what is available to a tramp trader run by ethically challenged merchants - PCs in other words - after the big boys have taken all the big stuff.

The merchant lines - the ones you generate a character's previous experience from and then leave to begin adventuring or living the life of a free trader - will ship goods using a far different economic model, one that can not be determined from the free trader minigame of LBB2.

Look at the chapter in The Traveller Adventure detailing the major shipping companies, their ships and their routes.
So megacorp trading model is a matte painting behind the players -- it's there, but never interacted with. That's fine for the LBB2 small-ship universe and its play style, but doesn't provide anything for playing above that level. I can understand that, because Traveller doesn't simulate (future) reality, it simulates science fiction. The "you can't get there from here" effect makes some sense in that context, in that the cargo mini-game isn't meant to be an accurate model, merely a playable and plausible game within a Sci-Fi setting. Extrapolation from a broken model yields meaningless results.

The problem comes in with LBB7. It does seem to extrapolate from that model, apparently without limit.
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  #98  
Old November 29th, 2020, 03:37 AM
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The main flaw in LBB2's cargo rules is the economics of shipping.

Cr1000/Td/jump pricing only makes sense for Jump-1 (no higher Jn ship can make a profit on it, at the quantities provided in the trade game). Since that's the only profitable Jn, then it will be the only Jn the market provides. As such, any cargo that moves more than 1 parsec pays Cr1000/Td/parsec.

This can be capped by saturating the market with J-3 subsidized liners (and J-2 far fat traders, though those are merely implied by the build rules, not canon themselves) to force Cr1000/ton/jump rates over J2 and J3. It still wouldn't result in a fleet of independent ships of more than Jump-1, though.

But it could explain the link between LBB7 and LBB2. The cargo in LBB2 is what comes from the locals buying freight under the LBB7 rules. They then ship it at the LBB2 Cr1000/ton/jump rate, which is usually supported by subsidized shippers. The PCs can carry it on their ship instead if they're willing to lose money on it -- which they might be, if it'd otherwise be empty space around their own speculative goods. But this is rationalization, and assumes active intervention (at what may be considerable expense) to force shipping costs below what's profitable for ships above Jump-1 capability.

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  #99  
Old November 29th, 2020, 03:39 AM
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Higher jump number PC ships - and NPC free traders - make their money from speculative trade and 'odd jobs'.
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Old November 29th, 2020, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grav_Moped View Post
A high passenger can 'bump' (outbid) a mid passenger (LBB2, 2nd ed., p.5).

The displaced mid passenger gets a refund, but has no recourse other than to then buy a high passage to displace a different mid-passenger.
IF there is any stateroom occupied by someone who purchased a "mid passage" ticket!

If all of the few staterooms but one have been booked with HIGH passage tickets, then apparently either the couple "take out" one of the others or they don't take the trip, apparently in your world.
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