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Ship's Locker Submit your favorite original equipment and weapons for others to use in their own Traveller campaigns.

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  #41  
Old November 26th, 2020, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proneutron View Post
Yep. Exactly. Transporter tech won't work as written while the "MealMaker" is VERY possible by TL 10-11.
Identify ANY working molecular assembler as “proof of concept” to base your conclusion on. What complex organic compound is manufactured by artificial means from basic elements (Elemental Oxygen, Nitrogen, Hydrogen, Carbon, etc.)

The difference between starting with atomic elements and starting with energy and having some “magic box” employ technobabble handwavium technology so that delicious food comes out the other side that is indistinguishable from what a chef would make with natural ingredients ... is 100% semantics.
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  #42  
Old November 26th, 2020, 09:31 PM
Proneutron Proneutron is offline
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Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
Identify ANY working molecular assembler as “proof of concept” to base your conclusion on.
"Molecular synthesis is a technology that chemists use to make molecules by forming covalent bonds between atoms." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC122665/ https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0606101826.htm

Lots of work being done in this area. This of course is TL 7 not TL 10.

Much opposition towards this very probable tech as opposed to all the MUCH less probable tech in Traveller. As Spock would have said, "FASCINATING"
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  #43  
Old November 26th, 2020, 10:22 PM
Enoki Enoki is offline
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Within what's generally considered possible in Traveller, I could see a machine that could make a range of basic generic food products from molecules that form the basis of those foods. Think of it was something like a Keurig coffee maker.

That is, it has the necessary molecules to make a certain amount of whatever food you want in a compact module you insert into the machine. The machine then takes those molecules and arranges them into the final product. The output would be something like a good loaf of bread, or a slab of meat from some particular animal. It gives you the bread or a steak, or whatever, but it doesn't give you the original product that is made from ingredients or butchered from an animal. That is, you get steak but not a say, T-bone steak.

It also doesn't do this at the atomic level. That would require far more computing and sensor power to make up first the molecules, then arrange these to make the product, not to mention a lot more energy. On the other hand, a bread-like product is possible from molecules that make up a loaf of bread. These just need arranging into a pattern that is similar to bread. The result is bread, but it is bread that is obviously not fresh baked, hand made, or used the actual ingredients that go into bread. The product has no randomness to it. It is consistent in texture and flavor. All that simplifies making it artificially.

The molecular version I'd think works much like a molecular level 3D printer does. It uses the already made up molecules of bread to make a loaf of bread.

You also don't get the add on items like seasoning, particular cuts, and such that a chef would do in preparing the product. You get the item per the program.
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  #44  
Old November 27th, 2020, 12:10 AM
Proneutron Proneutron is offline
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Originally Posted by Enoki View Post
Within what's generally considered possible in Traveller,
If going through J space and gravitic drives are possible in Traveller this machine is WAY more possible in Traveller. Basic logic
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  #45  
Old November 27th, 2020, 12:59 AM
tjoneslo tjoneslo is offline
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https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Survival_Still

Is this the kind of thing you are thinking of. I'm sure with later TLs you can get better results like more flavors.
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  #46  
Old November 27th, 2020, 02:48 AM
BlackBat242 BlackBat242 is offline
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Originally Posted by coliver988 View Post
According to the Next Gen tech manual:

(p153) Food service onboard the Enterprise is provided by a molecular replication system that can instantly recreate any of thousands of food selections at a moments notice. This system employs transporter-based matter replication which can produce, with almost total fidelity, almost 4,500 types of foods, which are stored in the computers memory. The heart of the food replication system is a pair of molecular matric matter replicators based on decks 12 and 34. These devices dematerialize a measured quantity of raw material in a matter similar to a standard transporter.

So I think where Proneutron is going basically, though not with so much Trek-speak. But there is matter for the original food, it just gets rearranged at the molecular level.
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Originally Posted by Proneutron View Post
Wrong. It is not at all like matter creation from energy. Which is 100% what Trek replicator tech is. My device is 100% NOT energy to matter conversion.

Replicator tech as shown in ST is not possible. Building molecules out of constituent atoms is completely possible (as it has been done) and quite probable.
Sorry -Star Trek transporter technology is NOT what you are claiming it to be!

Throughout all of the series transporters are described the same - they dematerialize existing matter and reassemble it elsewhere.

Most of the time the intent is to reassemble the matter exactly as it was before - it is only in the replicator application that the matter is, once disassembled into particles that can be transmitted through the focused transporter field, re-assembled into matter of a different configuration.

At no time is Star Trek technology ever claimed to create matter purely from energy! It always starts with matter, and, as that passage from the Next Gen Tech manual clearly states, the same quantity of matter as the final product is composed of!
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  #47  
Old November 27th, 2020, 02:54 AM
Enoki Enoki is offline
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Originally Posted by Proneutron View Post
If going through J space and gravitic drives are possible in Traveller this machine is WAY more possible in Traveller. Basic logic
Jump drives and gravetic drives don't require that you not only manipulate atoms but form them into complex molecules then arrange those molecules into complex patterns.
A gravetic drive only requires you can manipulate gravity as a physical force. The jump drive is likely an offshoot of that technology to allow FTL movement. Neither requires the sort of precision to turn gazillions (a technical term) of atoms into a steak.
Sure, that task would be somewhat repetitive but you need to add energy to make the molecules and probably need to add yet more energy to turn those molecules into a coherent slab of meat or whatever. Moreover, food in whatever form isn't just some unilateral one-molecule thing. You have a huge number of different molecules involved even if the basic building blocks are the same group of atoms.
So to turn atoms into say bread you need those molecules for wheat or the grain used, an oil or shortening, possibly sugar, most likely yeast, water, etc. It's going to be a pretty complex process putting all those different things into some precise or relatively precise pattern to form food from them.

https://www.chemistryviews.org/detai...d__Part_3.html

As you can see there, it isn't simply one or another molecule involved but a whole raft of them in various forms combined using heat to turn out the final product.
A food making machine will require a serious amount of processing power and sensor capacity to do it.
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  #48  
Old November 27th, 2020, 02:16 PM
Proneutron Proneutron is offline
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Originally Posted by Enoki View Post
Jump drives and gravetic drives don't require that you not only manipulate atoms but form them into complex molecules then arrange those molecules into complex patterns.
No it just requires that one finds, opens, enters and moves around in a precise manner inside a different universe then exits light years away at a preplanned point in our universe. I mean just like today we are making molecules out of individual atoms so I'm sure people are successfully moving in and out of alternative universes...
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  #49  
Old November 27th, 2020, 04:07 PM
Proneutron Proneutron is offline
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Now there are a couple of differences between a MealMakerTM that is part of a kitchen in a home on a world with a N+O2 atmosphere and one installed in a ship or other structure maintained by artificial life support systems. That is, the one for a home will distill the N it needs out of the surrounding air. Possibly the O as well but most likely will obtain that from a connected water supply. The other will have to be supplied with liquid nitrogen in the form of bottles.

Other than good food for a pittance, another great feature of the device is that it can be programmed to ensure a healthy diet for a person. If that program is activated it will track what a person is eating and ensure that the food contains everything needed for health. E.g. A person is just eating apple pies. The machine will ensure that enough protein and what not are balanced in the food. Using molecular permutations like L-glucose it ensures a healthy diet for those with an insatiable sweet tooth as well.

Last edited by Proneutron; November 27th, 2020 at 09:58 PM..
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  #50  
Old November 28th, 2020, 02:40 PM
Tobias Tobias is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proneutron View Post
Nope. The mealmaker is realistic by TL 11 and the ST replicators are not realistic at any TL
As I said: In practice. And in practice it is the same:
The star trek food replicator can produce any kind of dish from scratch at negligible cost in materials or energy, with no sentient work being required.
The meal maker can produce any kind of dish from scratch at negligible cost in materials or energy, with no sentient work being required.

The technical workings and whether or not they are "realistic" are not relevant to this point.
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