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  #11  
Old September 13th, 2019, 06:34 PM
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Afternoon from Roy, WA AnotherDilbert,

Yippee, the quote button worked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
You reversed segments and crew / segment for the Regal. It's 75 segments of 5 crew each.

Page 82 Step 8 "...For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200 kl ship divides into two 23-person segments."


Following the presentation from the Step 8 Example the Regal has five 75-person segments not 75 segments of 5-persons each.

Quote:
Agreed, we don't how many medics are included in the crew, but we can guess. Since "Cd = (Z/120)+(Cl/20) (drop fractions)" the crew contains no medics unless we have many low berths aboard.

And that is why we calculate the size of the frozen watch Cf without the medics, otherwise we get a circular reference that we can't solve without a lot of calculations.
Note that MT Consolidated Errata v2.21 page 38 changed the equation to read: Cd = (Z / 120) + ((Cl + Cf) / 20) (drop fractions), where Z = Crew and Passengers, Cl = Low Passengers, and Cf = Frozen Watch.

Another candle flickers on for the Step 8 example. Even by adding 46 crew members to the 45 total crew we do not meet the threshold for medical crew.

Without including a frozen watch or low berth passengers the Regal has total crew Z is 312. The Medical Crew requirement is Cd = 312 / 120 = 2.6 dropping fractions means the Regal has a medical crew requirement of 2.


Adding a frozen watch of four 75-person segments equals 300 people requiring low berths. The Medical Crew requirement is Cd = 300 / 20 = 15.


Quote:
It doesn't say anything about rounding, so we can simply not round but leave it at 4.16.

Combine that with "If Cf low (not emergency low) berths are present, the ship can carry a frozen watch". We need at least 4.16 low berths, but they can only be installed in whole numbers, so we need 5 low berths.
MT Referee's Manual Step 8 page 60 "... For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200 kl ship divides into two 23-person segments."

A low berth houses one person. In the example two 23-person equal a total of 46 people. One 23-person segment requires 23 low berths and having both segments require 46 low berths.

The Regal has five 75-person segments. One frozen watch section requires at least 1 75-person segment which requires 75 low berths.
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Old September 13th, 2019, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
Page 82 Step 8 "...For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200 kl ship divides into two 23-person segments."

Following the presentation from the Step 8 Example the Regal has five 75-person segments not 75 segments of 5-persons each.
Yes, the example ship has 2 segments of 23 people each.

A _ _16 200 kl (_1 200 Dt) ship has 1.2 rounded to 2 segments.
A 1 012 500 kl (75 000 Dt) ship has 75 segments.

According to the formula:
Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
Crew Segments = (Hull Volume kl / 13,500 kl, rounded up)
One segment for each 13 500 kl = 1000 Dt (or part thereof). So a 75 000 Dt ship, like the Regal, has 75 segments.

I really don't see why we disagree about this? We agree on the formula?

Last edited by AnotherDilbert; September 13th, 2019 at 07:23 PM..
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Old September 13th, 2019, 08:04 PM
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Hello again AnotherDilbert,

None of the quotes from my post appears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
As noted above, the Regal has 75 segments of 5 crew each.
Page 82 Step 8 Crew Segments "...For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200 kl ship divides into two 23-person segments."

The MT Consolidated Errata correction: "Divide the crew into one even segment per 13,500 kl of hull; treat all fractional hull segments as a full segment. For example, the 45-person crew of a 16,200 kl ship divides into 23-person segments."

"Divide the Crew into one even segment per 13,500 kl of hull; treat all fractional hull segments as a full segment."

One even segment per 13,500 kl of hull = 16,200 /13,500 = 1.2; treat all fractional hull segments as a full segment = 2 full segments.

45-person crew / 2 full segments = 23-persons per segment.

One even segment has 23-personnel. The 16,200 kl ship has two 23-person segments.

Quote:
In your own words:
Yep, I was very, very confused but I think I may have a handle on it now and thank you for your help and patience.

Quote:
Crew segments = 1 012 500 kl / 13 500 kl = 75.
Personnel in one segment = 329 / 75 = 4.39 rounded up to 5.

Each frozen watch is 5 people.

Each frozen watch must contain at least 1.5 pilots, nothing is said about in addition or anything like it. Pilots in general are not in addition to the crew, they are a part of the crew.

This comes from CT where (originally) a frozen watch was 50% of the crew, including 50% of the pilots, which made perfect sense.
CT LBB 2 Starships requirement was one pilot per hull.

CT LBB 5 High Guard 2 page 32 apparently subsumed the pilots into the Command Section on hulls > 1,000 displacement tons.

CT Adventure 5 TCS pilot requirements are 1 pilot on hulls < 500 displacement tons, hulls 500 displacement tons and < 20,000 tons require 2 pilots, and hull of 20,000 tons and more have 3 pilots.

If the Regal, per TCS, has three pilots and are part of the crew they have been counted, I'm guessing, as part of the Bridge crew and are therefore have already accounted for in the frozen watch.

CT LBB 5 HG2 page 33 Frozen watch "...If low berths provide a 50% overage in personnel (including ship's troops), then the ship has a frozen watch..."

As mentioned ship's pilots have been included in the crew calculations so they have been included in the 50% overage of personnel.

In MT using the CT Adventure 5 TCS the 3 pilots have already been included so they are already a part of the frozen watch personnel. My guess they are included in the Bridge crew calculation.

Thank you again for your help.
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Old September 13th, 2019, 08:07 PM
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Hello AnotherDilbert,

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Yes, the example ship has 2 segments of 23 people each.

A _ _16 200 kl (_1 200 Dt) ship has 1.2 rounded to 2 segments.
A 1 012 500 kl (75 000 Dt) ship has 75 segments.

According to the formula:

One segment for each 13 500 kl = 1000 Dt (or part thereof). So a 75 000 Dt ship, like the Regal, has 75 segments.

I really don't see why we disagree about this? We agree on the formula?
I wish I typed faster but in my post I finally had the candle flicker on and now agree with the 75 segments of 5 crew members.

I should have mentioned I am sometimes very slow in catching on.

Thank you for your help.
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Old September 13th, 2019, 10:15 PM
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As I recall the Frozen Crew algorithm is based on a wargaming assumption that casualties will be spread evenly across the ship departments; the Flight/Helm department is in unusual low numbers compared to the rest.

I'd round up the department requirements; with pilots specifically, it should be how many are actually required per watch for the (mother) ship.

You can always increase the size of the Frozen Watch as a whole, or specific departments, though that has to be noted as naval doctrine, or as an exception to it for that particular ship, type or class.

One would assume that if the helmsman is a casualty, the primary bridge is in likely need of repair.
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Old September 14th, 2019, 08:33 AM
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Morning from the Pacific Northwest Condottiere,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
As I recall the Frozen Crew algorithm is based on a wargaming assumption that casualties will be spread evenly across the ship departments; the Flight/Helm department is in unusual low numbers compared to the rest.

Thank you for the recollection on how the calculation of the frozen was determined. I'm not sure that a space vessel's flight/helm department is going to have a lower probability of taking a hit.

Quote:
I'd round up the department requirements; with pilots specifically, it should be how many are actually required per watch for the (mother) ship.
There are 10 departments that MT Referee's Manual Craft Design calculates crew for. Two departments round up, seven drop fractions, and one, the frozen watch, does not to round up or drop fractions. The problem is that MT does not provide a means of determining the number of pilot's a starship or spacecraft requires. In CT LBB 2 Starships small craft, spacecraft, and starships require one pilot. CT LBB 5 High Guard 2e Small Craft require as part of their design requirements a pilot. Starship and spacecraft hulls between 100 and 1,000 displacement tons, per the design requirements default to CT LBB 2 requirements of one pilot. There are no pilot requirements mentioned for hulls greater 1,000 displacement tons and from discussions I've had the general consensus is that the pilots are subsumed in the Command Section.

The duration and number of watches is not discussed in the design process for any Traveller rule set. The traditional watch standing rotation is six four hour watches. However, the rotation can be four six hour or three eight hour watches. During the watch each station will have the watch stander swapped out after a set time period to help keep the person from mentally checking out from boredom and to use the sanitary facilities from time to time.

Quote:
You can always increase the size of the Frozen Watch as a whole, or specific departments, though that has to be noted as naval doctrine, or as an exception to it for that particular ship, type or class.
The way the frozen watch is now determined you really do not know how many personnel are from which department since they are lumped together to make the calculation simpler. I, as has been shown, have problems even with the simplified material.

Quote:
One would assume that if the helmsman is a casualty, the primary bridge is in likely need of repair.
Anyplace on a large enough ship that takes casualties is likely going to need repair. Of course the smaller the hull the chances of being destroyed increases depending on what size weapon is used to hit them with.
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Old September 17th, 2019, 09:21 AM
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Hello all,

Thanks to Another Dilbert I have a handle of a sort on determining the segments, crew per segment, and crew per frozen watch.

The problem I am having is that somewhere in the earlier the total crew used was 329. Step 9-8 Crew Segments determined that there are 75 segments of 5 crew. Checking the numbers 75 x 5 = 375 crew which is 375 - 329 = 46 crew more than the calculated number.

The ship's crew has been determined at 329 using the 5 crew per segment. Working with the calculated crew I get 329 / 5 = 65.8 segments or 65 complete segments of 5 crew members and 1 segment with 4 crew.

To have a complete frozen watch I need 329 low berths.

I think Step 9-7 Frozen Watch and 9-8 Crew Segments will have to a modification note in any designs I might share with the community.
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Old September 17th, 2019, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
The problem I am having is that somewhere in the earlier the total crew used was 329. Step 9-8 Crew Segments determined that there are 75 segments of 5 crew. Checking the numbers 75 x 5 = 375 crew which is 375 - 329 = 46 crew more than the calculated number.
The segment calculation is probably not supposed to tell us anything about the total crew, but just tells us how many crew are casualties in a Crew-1 hit.

So, a Crew-1 hit results in 5 casualties, replaced by thawing a 5 person frozen watch. No more, no less.
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Old September 18th, 2019, 11:43 PM
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Hello AnotherDilbert,

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
The segment calculation is probably not supposed to tell us anything about the total crew, but just tells us how many crew are casualties in a Crew-1 hit.

So, a Crew-1 hit results in 5 casualties, replaced by thawing a 5 person frozen watch. No more, no less.
First my apologies for taking not getting back to you sooner, I blew up my MT spreadsheet and I have been trying to put it back together.

On the Regal's profile sheet of the original sheet the Accomm block's first entry is Crew=75x5 (Bridge=18,... and Donald's version is Crew=329 (75x4;...

The original version tells me that there can be 75 Crew hits on the Regal before the crew is wiped out.

In Donald's version the ship has a crew of 329 and that there are still 75 Crew hits on the Regal before the crew is wiped out.

In actuality 66 Crew hits will wipe out the crew.
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Old September 19th, 2019, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post
On the Regal's profile sheet of the original sheet the Accomm block's first entry is Crew=75x5 (Bridge=18,... and Donald's version is Crew=329 (75x4;...

The original version tells me that there can be 75 Crew hits on the Regal before the crew is wiped out.

In Donald's version the ship has a crew of 329 and that there are still 75 Crew hits on the Regal before the crew is wiped out.

In actuality 66 Crew hits will wipe out the crew.
I would say each crew hit inflicts 5 casualties.
After 33 crew hits the crew is reduced below 50%, so the ship is no longer combat effective (no attack or repair).
After 66 crew hits there is no functioning crew left (which surprisingly has no specified effect).


If the ship has taken 30 crew hits it probably have bigger problems as this implies many spinal meson hits or an almost unarmoured ship.
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