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Old November 23rd, 2015, 07:27 PM
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Default Attn: Historians of the Rebellion Era (1116-1248)

I have a few questions concerning the Rebellion and I apologize if these are a bit basic. My focus of interest is obviously Lemish subsector of Corridor.

1) What happens to the IISS during this entire time? Scouts are not soldiers, but do have value as intelligence assets for all factions during the war. So what did the scouts do while the Army and Navy were slaughtering each others?

2) Canon states that a)the fleet pulls out of Corridor, b) the Vargr attack, (the axises of attacks is something I am still looking at. Probably 2 lines, one via Dazey's World and Tamilaa, the other through Siuru and Khukish. Although I think the primary line of attack would come through Tamilaa and Weyland. But that is another discussion.) c) they smash Lemish as an example, d) and then what?

Do the Vargr stay to rule and colonize? Do they move on, to Depot, or Khukish or Naadi? Do the humans survivors mount a successful resistance? Or do they eventually working out a means of cohabitating?

The time between the attack and 1131 is a big blank space. I am trying to figure out what happened.

3) Lemish is almost half way between the Deneb Quarantine zone and the Vilani border, after the Virus. around 1205 there was some scurmishes between the two. Is there any details on these incidents?

That is it for now.
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Drakon View Post
I have a few questions concerning the Rebellion and I apologize if these are a bit basic. My focus of interest is obviously Lemish subsector of Corridor.

1) What happens to the IISS during this entire time? Scouts are not soldiers, but do have value as intelligence assets for all factions during the war. So what did the scouts do while the Army and Navy were slaughtering each others?
Carry the mail, carry orders back and forth for low-priority orders, survey and tax assess captured worlds, report invasions by exiting immediately when one is ID'd.

Plus whatever the admiral asks those on loan to do.

Quote:
2) Canon states that a)the fleet pulls out of Corridor, b) the Vargr attack, (the axises of attacks is something I am still looking at. Probably 2 lines, one via Dazey's World and Tamilaa, the other through Siuru and Khukish. Although I think the primary line of attack would come through Tamilaa and Weyland. But that is another discussion.) c) they smash Lemish as an example, d) and then what?
Mostly raiding. But note: Vargr Raiders are, essentially, corporate pirates. They don't want to rule, but they do want tribute, and don't want a sector nor subsector government to remain nor arise.

See, Ruling is (1) not exciting, (2) filled with liabilities, and (3) ties up forces.
Raiding, even heavy raiding like happens in Corridor, is (1) at least usually exciting, (2) limited liabilities if there is no government, and (3) Allows for more chances to prove dominance by extracting tribute, while (4) not tying up as many forces.

Quote:
Do the Vargr stay to rule and colonize? Do they move on, to Depot, or Khukish or Naadi? Do the humans survivors mount a successful resistance? Or do they eventually working out a means of cohabitating?
THey're self-limiting. If too many are raiding, there is nothing left to pillage, so they raid each other. If not, then they are the increased pirate risk for outlands.

Note that raiders with full holds are VERY likely to take the goods on to the intended port - because they know the goods are likely to be at least ransomed, if not purchased outright.

Likewise, a good pirate never takes everything. Just the biggest score. In part, because corsairs have smaller cargo space, and in part, because piracy is (aside from origination port) best handled at taxation type rates - enough to be a pain, not enough to result in violent response from the prey.

Quote:
The time between the attack and 1131 is a big blank space. I am trying to figure out what happened.
The maps in Hard Times tell much of the story.
Between 1116 and 1122 Subsectors B/C/D/F/G/H/K of Deneb, and A/B/C/D/E/F/G/H experience sufficient interruption of government to qualify as outlands/wilds. Essentially, the pull out of the sector fleet and the subsector numbered fleets by Lucan doomed them to being raided and overrun by Vargr raiders.

Subsectors C and H of deneb, and C & D of Corridor both suffered intensive (major front lines kind) warfare.
Subsectors A/B/D/G of Deneb and B/F/G of corridor were effectively war zones.
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3) Lemish is almost half way between the Deneb Quarantine zone and the Vilani border, after the Virus. around 1205 there was some scurmishes between the two. Is there any details on these incidents?
Skirmishes means "small battles" and/or "fighting peripheral to the battle" and/or "fighting peripheral to the main line of battle".

Lemish is tackled to discourage Subsector Governments, IMO. It was the subsector capital. It's being targeted because it's got (1) the subsector fleet HQ, and (2) major fleet facilities (Scout, Navy bases, capital assets, probably the subsector admiralty court). Note that it also is J5 from any "vargr" worlds, and J4 from Depot/Corridor. It's an ideal staging point for wiping out Depot.
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 10:21 PM
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The supplement "Survival Margin" for TNE has some good maps and TNS reports of the progression of the Rebellion if you don't already have it.

I don't have much in the way of canon beyond what you have but...

SCOUTS: This is one I've thought about. You have to figure that they ended up as splintered as the others. But there would likely still be a sense of camaraderie between them. Much more Detached Duty activations for recon and other purposes. In Margaret's Domain, the IISS was ordered to redo their survey activity to map Wilds/Outlands/Frontier etc. This implies that at least some of them were with each faction.

VARGR: There is a semi-state attempted in Lishun by one of the Vargr chieftains. It's ramshackle, to use a coined term, and hindered by the Vargr propensities. The Rebellion sourcebook cites an artificial media icon as a unifying icon... which seems pretty dumb IMO. I would look to horde/mercenary forces in history for a better analogy. Essentially, as long as they're all near to each other and winning, things are great. Then a visionary comes and tries to settle down and rule... and half his/her army evaporates because, as Aramis put it, it's no longer "fun" or profitable.
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Old November 24th, 2015, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Carry the mail, carry orders back and forth for low-priority orders, survey and tax assess captured worlds, report invasions by exiting immediately when one is ID'd.

Plus whatever the admiral asks those on loan to do.
All the admirals left with the rest of the Imperial Navy, off to fight in the rebellion. The only imperial presense are the few nobles that felt their duty were to their people than fighting over somebody else's throne.

Would the Vargr leave the scouts in peace, allowing them to continue their mail transport and exploratory/survey missions?
Quote:
Mostly raiding. But note: Vargr Raiders are, essentially, corporate pirates. They don't want to rule, but they do want tribute, and don't want a sector nor subsector government to remain nor arise.

See, Ruling is (1) not exciting, (2) filled with liabilities, and (3) ties up forces.
Raiding, even heavy raiding like happens in Corridor, is (1) at least usually exciting, (2) limited liabilities if there is no government, and (3) Allows for more chances to prove dominance by extracting tribute, while (4) not tying up as many forces.
So, the Vargrs would come in, blow the snot out of everything, steal what they can, repair their ships, and just leave?

Then return frequently to demand tribute from whomever was left.
Quote:
THey're self-limiting. If too many are raiding, there is nothing left to pillage, so they raid each other. If not, then they are the increased pirate risk for outlands.

Note that raiders with full holds are VERY likely to take the goods on to the intended port - because they know the goods are likely to be at least ransomed, if not purchased outright.
if they hadn't blown up all those ships, they wouldn't have to carry the stolen booty in their own ships.
Quote:
Likewise, a good pirate never takes everything. Just the biggest score. In part, because corsairs have smaller cargo space, and in part, because piracy is (aside from origination port) best handled at taxation type rates - enough to be a pain, not enough to result in violent response from the prey.
That would make sense. Now would the Vargr think that far ahead?
Quote:

The maps in Hard Times tell much of the story.
Digging out the TNE disk,
1117: Khukish is Vargr invasion zone, next door.
1119: Lemish is a war zone, the entire subsector
1123: Lemish is outlands
1125: Wilds
1201: Wilds
Quote:
Lemish is tackled to discourage Subsector Governments, IMO. It was the subsector capital. It's being targeted because it's got (1) the subsector fleet HQ, and (2) major fleet facilities (Scout, Navy bases, capital assets, probably the subsector admiralty court). Note that it also is J5 from any "vargr" worlds, and J4 from Depot/Corridor. It's an ideal staging point for wiping out Depot.
My thoughts exactly, and considered the unique way depot fell, it occurs to me that could have been a cunning plan gone wrong.
I read somewhere that after Depot, The Vengence and the Glory got to fighting and the Vengence, even though a smaller band of mercs in the larger Vargr Horde, ended up taking over the Glory eventually.
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Old November 24th, 2015, 01:22 AM
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All the admirals left with the rest of the Imperial Navy, off to fight in the rebellion. The only imperial presense are the few nobles that felt their duty were to their people than fighting over somebody else's throne.
No, they didn't - because only the Imperial fleets were pulled, not the system fleets. And several of those would have admirals.

I don't recall definitive statements that the reserve fleets also got pulled.
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Old November 24th, 2015, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Drakon View Post
1) What happens to the IISS during this entire time? Scouts are not soldiers, but do have value as intelligence assets for all factions during the war. So what did the scouts do while the Army and Navy were slaughtering each others?
I've always been unclear if the Scouts are actually considered a branch of the Imperial military or not.

I can't really imagine the Navy being content to leave a service with so many starships alone to do its own thing while wars rage, however.

I personally believe Scouts would be required to back-up the Navy in various roles. I'd imagine a large portion of the Scouts job would be to ... scout. They'd perform distant picket duties, act as listening posts in contested but lower-priority systems to track enemy transit patterns and perhaps even perform ELINT jobs, jumping into the distant orbits of hostile systems and perform "starship counting" duties and so on. Despite how it sounds, these lightly-armed starships would be really vulnerable doing this kind of stuff so during the Rebellion, the Scouts youngest, best and brightest probably got killed off at an amazing rate. The older Scouts probably tried their best to vanish into the woodwork (some might call it "desertion").

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Originally Posted by Drakon View Post
2) Canon states that a)the fleet pulls out of Corridor, b) the Vargr attack, (the axises of attacks is something I am still looking at. Probably 2 lines, one via Dazey's World and Tamilaa, the other through Siuru and Khukish. Although I think the primary line of attack would come through Tamilaa and Weyland. But that is another discussion.) c) they smash Lemish as an example, d) and then what?

Do the Vargr stay to rule and colonize? Do they move on, to Depot, or Khukish or Naadi? Do the humans survivors mount a successful resistance? Or do they eventually working out a means of cohabitating?
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The Rebellion sourcebook cites an artificial media icon as a unifying icon... which seems pretty dumb IMO.
I don't think the character (whose name escapes me at the moment) was a true leader. He was basically a hate-spewing pundit who spread an anti-Imperial meme to the Vargr in his rants. Regardless of where such memetic ideas get started, once the ball gets rolling, it's very hard to stop. The figure engaged in "anti-Imperial tirades" which riled the Vargr up and the tirades struck an emotional chord in the Vargr.

IMO, he didn't create any states, direct raids to a particular planet, or anything else. He literally spewed his bile, which the Vargr just ate up. The Vargr, like humans manipulated by hate-mongers, felt it tapped into a historical (possibly "ancient") resentment and stoked feelings of righteousness and xenophobia; even if these were created (for instance, making the Vargr hate humans over the treatment by humans during the Julian Wars era - it'd be "manufactured" hatred - the Vargr truly impacted by such a "history" are all long dead as are their descendants of X generations since. So are the humans who did such things. Yet the Vargr under the influence of this pundit would start to feel like "the humans" did this to them personally or their packmates). The likely result of all of this is that Vargr raids became much more brutal, much less clinical (in the way Aramis described it), less attention paid to "not killing the goose that lays the golden eggs", and so on. The attacks became less piracy and raiding and more reaving and "smash and grab" type things.

Of course, Vargr are individuals, so there'd be all kinds of strange stories; human colony worlds paying Vargr raiders for protection and the raiders actually honoring that agreement and fighting future Vargr raiders and other odd tales would be pretty commonplace, but I think for the most part, the worlds of Corridor are in for a bad time. Vargr corsairs might hear about the good pickings, and after the 5th or 6th raid, the world might not have much left it can spare, but eventually the Vargr would start demanding things the world couldn't spare, just to make the trip for the Vargr worth it. The worlds might fight back, but exhausted as they are, they wouldn't put up a good fight and the Vargr would simply smash and take whatever they wanted. If there wasn't anything to take, they'd probably get more violent, directing anger to the natives for "wasting their trip."
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Old November 24th, 2015, 10:49 AM
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I agree on the pundit thing but the explanation was kinda lame as to why it struck a chord. Basically, it was a self-adapting program that changed characteristics to each viewer in order to get the greatest emotional response.

In other words, a simple hate-spewing pundit is better (IMO) than a strange computer program that behaves like Max Headroom with Multiple Personality Disorder to be a more efficient hate-spewing pundit.

I don't know. It irritated me for some illogical reason. I like the "hate-spewing pundit" part better and am officially retro-conning ;-)
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Old November 24th, 2015, 11:14 PM
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No, they didn't - because only the Imperial fleets were pulled, not the system fleets. And several of those would have admirals.

I don't recall definitive statements that the reserve fleets also got pulled.
Okay, my understanding is that the reserve fleet were stationed at Depot, rather than co stationed with their sister fleets at Lemish. Also, I saw it as "all imperial naval vessels able to jump are to join in the fight." against Dulinor. Leaving behind ships who were irretrievably in drydock, the base and repair personel as well as all the dependents.

BTW: is the fate of the 105th and 60th fleets, or their reserves sisterfleets recorded anywhere? I suspect they were wiped out either in the direct flight with Dulinor, or later with the Virus, or borgified by the Virus.
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Old November 24th, 2015, 11:34 PM
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BTW: is the fate of the 105th and 60th fleets, or their reserves sisterfleets recorded anywhere? I suspect they were wiped out either in the direct flight with Dulinor, or later with the Virus, or borgified by the Virus.
Because the Corridor fleets were pulled in early, they were probably wiped out as effective fleets early. Some ships may have survived for longer, but since Lucan was fighting a multi-front war by four years in, the fates of each of the ships is probably unknowable. The Rebellion was not defined by a well known set of pitched battles so much as running battles, strategic feints and withdrawals, and whole subsectors considered one battlezone. Look at the conflict zone maps as the Rebellion progresses, then realize that no one survived to analyze and write the history. The fog of war never lifted.
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Old November 24th, 2015, 11:47 PM
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I've always been unclear if the Scouts are actually considered a branch of the Imperial military or not.

I can't really imagine the Navy being content to leave a service with so many starships alone to do its own thing while wars rage, however.

I personally believe Scouts would be required to back-up the Navy in various roles. I'd imagine a large portion of the Scouts job would be to ... scout. They'd perform distant picket duties, act as listening posts in contested but lower-priority systems to track enemy transit patterns and perhaps even perform ELINT jobs, jumping into the distant orbits of hostile systems and perform "starship counting" duties and so on. Despite how it sounds, these lightly-armed starships would be really vulnerable doing this kind of stuff so during the Rebellion, the Scouts youngest, best and brightest probably got killed off at an amazing rate. The older Scouts probably tried their best to vanish into the woodwork (some might call it "desertion").
Or possibly developed problems with their life support systems to ground their ships until long after the fleet has pulled out.

If the Imperial Navy uses the scouts as military scouts, then the scouts would be considered Imperial military and likely pulled with the Navy. Having an Imperial scout base on Vargr conquered world seems kind of unbelievable. If the scouts can sell themselves as a mail service, and/or scientific, the Vargr, (as well as the Ziru Sirka, and the Domain of Deneb) would allow them free travel.
Quote:
I don't think the character (whose name escapes me at the moment) was a true leader. He was basically a hate-spewing pundit who spread an anti-Imperial meme to the Vargr in his rants. Regardless of where such memetic ideas get started, once the ball gets rolling, it's very hard to stop. The figure engaged in "anti-Imperial tirades" which riled the Vargr up and the tirades struck an emotional chord in the Vargr.

IMO, he didn't create any states, direct raids to a particular planet, or anything else. He literally spewed his bile, which the Vargr just ate up. The Vargr, like humans manipulated by hate-mongers, felt it tapped into a historical (possibly "ancient") resentment and stoked feelings of righteousness and xenophobia; even if these were created (for instance, making the Vargr hate humans over the treatment by humans during the Julian Wars era - it'd be "manufactured" hatred - the Vargr truly impacted by such a "history" are all long dead as are their descendants of X generations since. So are the humans who did such things. Yet the Vargr under the influence of this pundit would start to feel like "the humans" did this to them personally or their packmates). The likely result of all of this is that Vargr raids became much more brutal, much less clinical (in the way Aramis described it), less attention paid to "not killing the goose that lays the golden eggs", and so on. The attacks became less piracy and raiding and more reaving and "smash and grab" type things.
I know who you are talking about and I can't remember the name either. It was not so much a person, as much as a highly manipulative media "character" or even computer program

(which brings up the question of what happens when this program gets Virusized?)

From REbellion Sourcebook, pg63
Quote:
The most popular of these synthetic personalities was Oekhsos; he conveyed a very strong charisma which inspired loyalty and allegiance among his viewers. Few realized that he was synthetic; most of his fans were inspired by the way his music touched their emotions and their intellects, and that effectively blinded them to seeing his synthetic nature.

Oekhsos, being synthetic, IS manipulated by his manager and a team of electronic scientists. They determine what subject matter his material will deal with. Recently, they found an explosive subject that markets better than any previous one: anti-Imperial tirades. Oekhsos' first tirade reached the top of the market charts immediately and stayed there for months. His second tirade sold even better. Other synthetic personalities joined in and produced their own tirades
Is this the Vargr we're looking for?
Quote:
Of course, Vargr are individuals, so there'd be all kinds of strange stories; human colony worlds paying Vargr raiders for protection and the raiders actually honoring that agreement and fighting future Vargr raiders and other odd tales would be pretty commonplace, but I think for the most part, the worlds of Corridor are in for a bad time. Vargr corsairs might hear about the good pickings, and after the 5th or 6th raid, the world might not have much left it can spare, but eventually the Vargr would start demanding things the world couldn't spare, just to make the trip for the Vargr worth it. The worlds might fight back, but exhausted as they are, they wouldn't put up a good fight and the Vargr would simply smash and take whatever they wanted. If there wasn't anything to take, they'd probably get more violent, directing anger to the natives for "wasting their trip."
Sigh, yeah, that is my feelings as well. And after 15 years of Vargr destruction, the Virus comes in and smashes things flat again and on top of everything else they have been through.
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